Originally Posted by moilami (Post 204279)

Hmm, how is sniping different? In air combat one of your missions is to eliminate the enemy. In sniping your mission is to eliminate the enemy. If we would go to different operations we would go for example to snipers in police. By then we could say sniping is different. However even by then the sniper would have to shoot mercilessly, possibly risking innocent people.

I don't say what pilots in WW2 thought about what is their job. I spoke about what people think was the job of the WW2 pilots. And I have seen many think something like air combat would had been some sort of glorified game with some sort of rules (moral code) which makes the difference between "us" and "them" e.g. good and evil.

So, if people begin to talk about ethics in air combat (is chute shooting right or wrong) and if they don't see enough to talk about it, I may have a word to say.

Shortly said there was a war going on, and in war you have certain responsibilities. Like protect your people and defeat the enemy. The faster and more effective you are in your responsibilities, the better. Now imagine a war where Knighs of the Sky are playing a game while the rest are burning and torn by explosions and gunfire. How much does that make sense? Are pilots privileged to only shoot "planes" down and not people? Or if they only shoot planes down does it make them better pilots (especially when they don't shoot chutes down because of the fear of getting the same fate from enemy)?

I know what people think with that glorified Knights of the Sky illusion. However that is sandbox war. Real war is not sandbox war. Now don't drink coffee. You have been warned. I will turn things upside down from what you have used to believe and I don't want you burst coffee on your keyboard and monitor.

Those who shooted chutes made the real sacrifice. They stopped playing a wargame and begun to do their best to eliminate the enemy. In the process they sacrificed their humanity, their principles of not shooting helpless, their respect as seen by enemy and comrades (honour stuff), and their safety of not getting shooted at in a chute by themselves. They sacrificed possibly everything we can imagine to stop the war and minimize casualties. They had the choise, and they made the sacrifice.

Such is war. Total madness. And it is best to see as it is.

Originally Posted by Wutz (Post 204284)

That is one opinion, but certainly one that I would not give any respect for.
I have had the honor of meeting a few former airmen of that time, and they all said those who shot at parachutes where frowned upon. I know you will say that is not backing 100% the war effort, many exmilitary will say that is the differance between being human and a savage.
With that attitude I can understand why civilians went medival when after a bombing raid, downed air crew where lead through their town, they where making sure that those crew members would not escape........

Sorry as a former military member myself I can not share your view.

Originally Posted by moilami (Post 204288)

After that I am interested to know how you define what is a big sacrifice soldiers in WW2 did?

Originally Posted by Igo kyu (Post 204289)

For one, there is western allied tank troops going up against panzers in shermans, where the tactic was to form a circle, and race in, with the panzer shooting shermans and the last sherman in the circle hopefully getting close enough in that time to shoot the panzer.

Yes, the sherman was that crap. However, it was easy and cheap to make, and many thousands were made, almost as many as the soviets made t34s, but the soviets made bigger tanks too.

Originally Posted by moilami (Post 204279)

Hmm, how is sniping different? In air combat one of your missions is to eliminate the enemy. In sniping your mission is to eliminate the enemy. If we would go to different operations we would go for example to snipers in police. By then we could say sniping is different. However even by then the sniper would have to shoot mercilessly, possibly risking innocent people.

I don't say what pilots in WW2 thought about what is their job. I spoke about what people think was the job of the WW2 pilots. And I have seen many think something like air combat would had been some sort of glorified game with some sort of rules (moral code) which makes the difference between "us" and "them" e.g. good and evil.

So, if people begin to talk about ethics in air combat (is chute shooting right or wrong) and if they don't see enough to talk about it, I may have a word to say.

Shortly said there was a war going on, and in war you have certain responsibilities. Like protect your people and defeat the enemy. The faster and more effective you are in your responsibilities, the better. Now imagine a war where Knighs of the Sky are playing a game while the rest are burning and torn by explosions and gunfire. How much does that make sense? Are pilots privileged to only shoot "planes" down and not people? Or if they only shoot planes down does it make them better pilots (especially when they don't shoot chutes down because of the fear of getting the same fate from enemy)?

I know what people think with that glorified Knights of the Sky illusion. However that is sandbox war. Real war is not sandbox war. Now don't drink coffee. You have been warned. I will turn things upside down from what you have used to believe and I don't want you burst coffee on your keyboard and monitor.

Those who shooted chutes made the real sacrifice. They stopped playing a wargame and begun to do their best to eliminate the enemy. In the process they sacrificed their humanity, their principles of not shooting helpless, their respect as seen by enemy and comrades (honour stuff), and their safety of not getting shooted at in a chute by themselves. They sacrificed possibly everything we can imagine to stop the war and minimize casualties. They had the choise, and they made the sacrifice.

Such is war. Total madness. And it is best to see as it is.

Originally Posted by winny (Post 204294)

A sniper is trained to kill someone. A fighter pilot is trained to shoot down planes the death of the pilot is secondary. I can't put it any simpler than that

Originally Posted by moilami (Post 204298)

Ah...but how about fighter pilots who strafe ground troops? I mean is shooting down enemy planes the only thing a figther pilot is trained to do? What about his role and duty as just one soldier in the war machine? Or does fighter pilots have some privileges?

Why it is okay for a sniper to make headshots on helpless enemy but if a fighter pilot does the same on a chute pilot it is suddenly oh so wrong :mad:? :lol: Is it really because of what sniper has been trained to do and what fighter pilot has been trained to do?

Originally Posted by moilami (Post 204298)

Ah...but how about fighter pilots who strafe ground troops? I mean is shooting down enemy planes the only thing a figther pilot is trained to do? What about his role and duty as just one soldier in the war machine? Or does fighter pilots have some privileges?

Why it is okay for a sniper to make headshots on helpless enemy but if a fighter pilot does the same on a chute pilot it is suddenly oh so wrong :mad:? :lol: Is it really because of what sniper has been trained to do and what fighter pilot has been trained to do?

Originally Posted by Igo kyu (Post 204289)

For one, there is western allied tank troops going up against panzers in shermans, where the tactic was to form a circle, and race in, with the panzer shooting shermans and the last sherman in the circle hopefully getting close enough in that time to shoot the panzer.

Yes, the sherman was that crap. However, it was easy and cheap to make, and many thousands were made, almost as many as the soviets made t34s, but the soviets made bigger tanks too.