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Quote:

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw* (Post 472206)

Well we apparently now have an answer for the OP's question...

The German 'Magic' Tungsten round.

Heh, if it were only that simple. Though it may be a factor, I hardly believe its a matter of ammo loadouts. If this were the case, there'd be a slew of this sort of pilot in question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw* (Post 472200)

No indication as to when tungsten rounds were available, and clear indication those which may have had tungsten in the core were rare.

For the Germans to have been given unlimited numbers of 'magic bullets' is clearly wrong.

But just another one of the many botched aspects of this Sim.

So what you're saying is, your source gives no concrete info. The most you can infer from your quoted passage is that the tungsten-carbide rounds were less common than the standard hardened steel AP rounds.

Cool, thanks for editorializing it as a magic bullet. :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles (Post 472218)

In any case, whether that ammunition was effective/available or not does not give solid evidence that it was correctly modeled as such in the game...and still doesn't give an explanation as to why/how certain pilots are able to hit ONLY the pilot from 200m+.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AbortedMan (Post 472220)

You have 2 choices:

1)Prove that they're ONLY hitting the pilot from 200m+

2)Stop talking

If you can't prove it, you're just another noob getting his wings clipped online, crying about cheats rather than learning to fly. So, once again, prove it or shut up.

Have you considered the possiblity that these guys are just really good, and you're just really bad?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles (Post 472221)

You're a wonderful human being with fantastic qualities and deserve to be loved like anyone else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles (Post 472218)

Salute

You obviously didn't bother reading my entire set of posts, or perhaps you decided to ignore the content.

1. I have quoted a British test which used captured German ammunition loadouts, and which shows 1% penetration of pilot armour, and makes no mention of special tungsten rounds.

2. I have linked to Anthony Williams article on the Battle of Britain, which deals with the ammunition used by either side, and which makes no mention of Tungsten cored rounds.

3. I quoted from the Wiki article, which notes only at some point tungsten rounds were built, but also they were not common, and doesn't give a time frame.

4. I have pointed out the Germans implemented as quickly as possible, a policy of converting from 7.92 mm wing weapons to the 20 mm FF, why would this policy be in place if the 7.92mm was as effective as it seems to be in the game?

I think it is up to you actually to prove these rounds were in general use during the BoB, available in large quantities, and had the penetrative abilities which seem to be in effect in the game.

To suggest that a round which has the same propellant charge would have suddenly the capability to automatically penetrate the same armour which only 99% of the standard German AP rounds, with the same propellant could not, could seems to me to call for proof.

Right now you are arguing for their inclusion when it's clear their effectiveness runs contrary to all the available facts.

All you have done in your reply is to show you have nothing in way of substantive proof to argue for their inclusion in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw* (Post 472226)

Uhh, I mean this in the politest of ways, but I think you're losing track of what the OP is about...and I'm not sure why the historical effectiveness and availability of the tungsten AP round is being brought to attention. I'm willing to bet money that the ballistics are far (FAR) from modeled correctly in-game. So comparing historical tests is not a valid comparison to in-game effects, IMO.

(In no way am I supporting Doggles narrow-minded, tl;dr-esque comment or taking his side, btw.)

Salute

Here is a quote from an online source re. 7.92mm projectiles used by the Germans and the quantity manufactured:

Quote:

Infanteriepatrone 7,9mm / Mauser 7.92x57 ammunition

This cartridge was used by the german Mauser Karabiner 98K, Gewehr 41, 43 and numerous other rifles as well as in aircraft, vehicle and infantry machine guns. As the german standard rifle cartridgeMauser 7,92x57 Infanteriepatrone it was called Infanteriepatrone 7,9mm ("infantry cartridge"), also known as the 7,9mm - Militärpatrone ("military cartridge") or as Mauser - Standardmunition 7,92x 57 (Mauser as the weapon company that introduced the ammo for its famous 98K rifle; 7.92mm is the calibre and 57mm the length of the casing (not the chamber as in the US); also, in germany a bore's caliber is measured from land to land). The total production of this cartridge during WW II was 10,475 million (that is over ten billion). Sometimes, esp. among angloamericans, it is also referred to as 8 mm Mauser.
The fired projectile of the Infanteriepatrone had a typical initial energy E0 of 3,700 Joule (sS - projectile of 12.8g at a V0 of 760m/s) but could reach initial energies of over 4,500 Joule (some V-Patronen) depending on the concrete ammunition type and firing weapon.

Between 80 and 90 % of all 7,9mm ammunition produced was of the 7,9 sS (sS for schweres Spitzgeschoss = "heavy pointed bullet") type; the complete cartridge weighed 27g, it was 80.6 mm long and contained 2.7g of gunpowder; the projectile weighed 12.8 g and was 35mm long. When fired from a MG34 or MG42 (as well as from the other rifles using the cartridge) it had a typical V0 of 755 m/s. The regular sS projectile had the following penetration performance: 85cm of dry pine wood at 100m, 65cm at 400m, 45cm at 800m and 10cm at 1,800m; 10mm of iron at 300m, 7mm at 550m; 5mm of steel at 100m; 3mm at 600m.

The second most used type was the SmK (Spitzgeschoss mit Kern = "pointed bullet with core") bullet that measured 37.2mm, weighed 11.5 g and contained a hardened steel core (about 8% of all produced 7.9mm rounds).

(my note, this is standard AP bullet)

Another type was the SmK L'spur (L'spur = Leuchtspur = "bright trace" = "tracer") bullet that was the previous type combined with a tracer that burned for 800 to 900 m (a little less numerous than the SmK).

The lS (leichtes Spitzgeschoss = "light pointed bullet") which had an aluminum core and therefore weighed only 5.5g which resulted in a higher speed of V0 = 925 m/s but of course also in a shortened total range (the bullet was used mainly in the air defense role; about 4-7% of the total production), the lS-L'Spur which with a length of 37.2mm and a weight of 6.1g was again the tracer version of the lS (less than 1% of total production).

A version produced mainly for use with the MG 17 as aircraft armament was the so-called V-Patrone which had an increased powder charge that increased the V0 by 15%. This ammunition type was available with the PmK projectile ("Phosphor mit Stahlkern" = "phosphor with steel core") or with the B ("Beobachtung" = "Observation") projectile contained a little phosphor and exploded upon impact, the latter ammunition type was also known as the B-Patrone and was used as an incendiary round; both types are not counted in the 7,9mm production

The final and most interesting (for our purposes) bullet type was the SmK(H). The H stood for Hartkern (hardened core), this was the armor piercing version of the 7,9mm Infanteriepatrone. The projectile had a length of only 28.2mm, weighed 12.5 g and contained a tungsten core that was 22.5 mm long. The propellant gunpowder of the shell was increased to 3.6 g. The bullet had a penetration power of almost 20mm of plain steel at a range of 500m (90° impact angle). However, production of this ammunition type ceased in March 1942 because of an acute shortage of tungsten; still, SmK(H) cartridges continued to be issued to the troops as late as February 1943. while it was still inproduction, this ammo type accounted for 1 to 2 % of the production of 7,9mm Infanteriepatronen.

You will note the source does not include SmK(H) in the list of ammunition designed for aircraft, it is noted as being issued to ground troops. And of course, it is 1-2% of production.

I suggest a new thread is opened to discuss ammo load outs and ballistics for this one to stay in topic.