Official Fulqrum Publishing forum - MW50 -Secondary effects were cooling of the engine .

Official Fulqrum Publishing forum (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/index.php)

- Daidalos Team discussions (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/forumdisplay.php?f=202)

- - MW50 -Secondary effects were cooling of the engine . (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/showthread.php?t=30181)

I see the main problem with this thread is that one of the main posters, Mustang, seems to have a somewhat low competence in the English language that seems to prevent him form actually discussing anything or properly understanding posts made by other users. The fact that he seems to be unfamiliar with the concept of how to properly present sources complicates the matter further.

To the topic:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPS69 (Post 398850)

This same concept applies to the SPits MkII with the 100 octane fuel.
WEP is emergency... not dogfight power...

I think that the Spitfire is a bad comparison here since its boost does not come from a Water/Methanol injection system but from supercharger air compression. Creating additional boost with the help of a supercharger might be effective, but unlike a water injection does not help with heat management and actually creates a lot of additional heat. This also explains why the RAF recommends the WEP boost to be used only for 5min while the MW50 was recommended by the Luftwaffe to be used for 10min at a time.

I hope that someone can understand this :(

And the reason For the FW 190 D9 has tank ( 39 minutes for water/methanol)

http://horsepowercalculators.net/tun...er-performance

Quote:

Why is this important for cooling ?
"
The first-order phase transitions are those that involve a latent heat . During such a transition, a system either absorbs or releases a fixed (and typically large) amount of energy. During this process, the temperature of the system will stay constant as heat is added.” … read more

Which means that the water or methanol will try to keep the air / fuel mixture at a fixed temperature of 65*C for the methanol phase change, and 100*C for the water phase change, for a long time (until the entire fuel has changed state) while absorbing a very large amount of heat energy out of the compressed air.

Since the air entering into the water/methanol spray’s path (especially with a lack of an intercooler) can be as high as 100*C above ambient (so with an ambient temperature of about 40*C for under hood temps we’re talking about an air inlet temperature of around 140*C in the intake piping).

Once this 140*C air meets the water & methanol mixture both the water and methanol will attempt to bring down the air / fuel mixture down to 100*C (the boiling point of water) and if all the water has vaporized into steam, then further down to 65*C the boiling point of methanol. If both operations are successful then the final temperature of our mixture is 65*C or 25*C above ambient which is great for any intercooler, and even more impressive for a higher octane non-intercooled system like ours relying on water methanol injection.

Now there are two possible applications for water / methanol injection:

1- The typical added cooling application:

a. In this setup, the water / methanol mix is usually mixed in a 50/50 mix of water and methanol.

b. The jetting is usually about 10-15% the total fuel flow of the system:

For example a 300hp four cylinder car needs four 450cc/min fuel injectors to produce that power figure. Our total fuel flow at peak power is 450cc/min 4 = 1800cc/min or 1.8 liters per minute of fuel.

1 gallon is four liters and 1 hour is sixty minutes so our total fuel consumption is equivalent to 27 gallons per hour of fuel (if you were able to stay at peak hp and rpm for a whole hour).

The reason we’re doing this math is that water / methanol jets are rated in gallons per hour.

So 10 to 15% of 27 gallons per hour = 2.7 to 4.05 GPH injection nozzle.

Now remember that 50% of our mixture is methanol, which is a high octane gasoline. So when injection 15% water methanol mixture with 50% of that being methanol, then our final air fuel ration will be richer by 7% or about 1 AFR point. This means that to reach optimum power again and our optimum air fuel ration we need to either increase boost pressure or retune our car to optimize it for the added high octane fuel.

2- Using methanol as a fuel

In light of what we just mentioned about methanol being a fuel, you could possibly use water /methanol injection as a supplementary stand alone high octane fuel system. The trick here is to keep in mind that the amount of water you spray in the system must be controlled to prevent the engine from hydro lock.

So in using water / methanol as a supplemental fuel as well as a cooling agent, limit the water content to 5 to 7% of your fuel injector flow, and compensate for your added fuel demands with methanol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shardur (Post 399032)

To the topic:

I think that the Spitfire is a bad comparison here since its boost does not come from a Water/Methanol injection system but from supercharger air compression. Creating additional boost with the help of a supercharger might be effective, but unlike a water injection does not help with heat management and actually creates a lot of additional heat. This also explains why the RAF recommends the WEP boost to be used only for 5min while the MW50 was recommended by the Luftwaffe to be used for 10min at a time.

I was doing a comparison in between engine blowing UP.

Still I must agree that the stationary condition must be worst for the Spitfire, since MW50 cools the engine even without movement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPS69 (Post 398922)

But most surprising is that overheat message comes on 80º
Manual states, 85º as safety, 100º as practical limit, 110º engine damage

Oil or Water temperature? ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robo. (Post 399180)

Oil or Water temperature? ;)

Funny question! If it was oil, it will be extremely cool!! Actually that will be Normal oil temperature, not the overheat mark.

http://www.aviation-history.com/engines/db601na.jpg

Quote:

CONSTRUCTION DB 605: Cylinder barrels of steel are screwed and shrunk into the cast Silium-Gamma-alloy cylinder blocks. These dry liners project beyond block providing attachment by means of threaded rings which pull the liners against the finished face of the crankcase. This feature helped to save the weight of the studs and avoided the possibility of distortion. 3
Two inlet and two exhaust valves per cylinder operated by rocker arms directly from a single camshaft carried upon the head. Stellited valve seats, exhaust valve sodium cooled, ball joints interpose rockers and valve stems.

Forged light-alloy pistons have concave heads, each piston has a floating pin and three compression and two oil-scraper rings with one below the pin. Forked type connecting rods with serrated joints at big ends, roller bearing at big end has three tracks of 24 rollers each. Forked rod is keyed to outside of roller race, plain rod runs on lead-bronze bearing over race.

One piece forged steel crankshaft carried in seven plain lead-bronze bearings. Eight balance weights attached to crank webs, splined forward end to receive splined sleeve of reduction gear pinion.

Deep light alloy crankcase with webs at main bearings, tubular mounting at rear below crankshaft for installation of cannon which can fire through propeller shaft, light top cover.

Centrifugal supercharger on port side of engine driven through a fluid coupling by a shaft at right angles to crankshaft. This shaft is driven through bevel gears from the crankshaft, variation in propeller speed secured through variable filling of fluid coupling by two-stage engine driven pump receiving lubricating oil from the main pressure filter.

First stage delivers oil direct to coupling and second stage delivery is passed in varying proportions between crankcase and coupling by piston valve controlled by a capsule which is sensitive to inlet pressure. Second stage cuts in at approximately 5,000 ft. and full delivery occurs at approximately 11,500 ft.

Butterfly throttle which is capsule controlled regulates supercharger delivery, second throttle which is pilot operated controls air supply to engine and manifold pressure, first throttle subjected to pressure between two throttles, increased boost for take-off controlled by clockwork mechanism, mixture delivered by supercharger to looped manifold by large diameter pipe, dry-sump pressure-feed lubrication, gear type oil pumps, spray of oil directed upon reduction gears, main oil pressure line feeds crankshaft bearings, secondary line feeds supercharger fluid pump.

http://www.aviation-history.com/engines/db601a-1.jpg

what fuel do we have ingame?

Quote:

RPS69=
I just tried it a bit. Picked a 190G6/AS and tried to climb with the MW50 at manual's speed.
Very bad results indeed...
But most surprising is that overheat message comes on 80º
Manual states, 85º as safety, 100º as practical limit, 110º engine damage

Quote:

Robo=
Oil or Water temperature?

Quote:

RPS69=
If it was oil, it will be extremely cool!! Actually that will be Normal oil temperature

BF 109 engines uses Oil, The overheat temp for BF 109 is wrong, at the ends something is wrong here gents!

Quote:

Originally Posted by HundertneunGustav (Post 399254)

what fuel do we have ingame?

In IL2 , many BF 109 dont reach the speed for C3 fuel usage, and their speed is for B4 fuel.

HundertneunGustav ...Give me time... please;)

I must read many many MANY data.
At the end I found the truth ...Alone!! No one helpme :(

1) Bf 109 MW50 cooling the engine, is a fact

2)***Some BF 109 engines, only can use C3

+With C3 fuel + NO MW50/MW30
And had 110% emergency power OK

3)***Others BF109 engines can use both B4 fuel + MW50/MW30 and C3 fuel NO MW50/MW30

+With B4 fuel + MW50 / MW30.
And had 110% emergency power OK

+With C3 fuel + NO MW50/MW30
And had 110% emergency power OK

4)***And others BF109 can use Both C3 fuel + MW50/MW30 and B4 fuel +MW50/MW30

+With C3 fuel + MW50/MW30
And had 110% emergency power OK

+With B4 fuel + MW50/MW30
And had 110% emergency power OK

http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/...1/Sinttulo.jpg

ONLY An example ;), I must read more
I Flight my P51 over Germany Then I encounter BF 109 G14.

The BF 109 G14, is the same plane with diferents setups

A) ***Maybe use only *B4 fuel, and don´t have MW50 methanol supply
Dont have allowed 110% emergency power, dont get cooling from MW50- *Its a easy kill

B) ***Or maybe I encounter G14 uses only C3 fuel and don´t have MW50 methanol supply, He can use 110% emergency power, and get extra power only from C3 fuel, but dont have extra power and cooling effect from MW50.- But this G14 have best performance than "A)".

C) ***Or I can encounter G14 with *B4 fuel + MW50 - He can use 110% of emergency power , and get more power from MW50 and get engine and cooling for 10 minutes. have best performace than "A)" and "B)" - Maybe is a more dificult kill

D) ***Or I encounter a G14 with C3 fuel + MW50, He can use 110% emergency power, and get extra power from C3 fuel , and again get more power from MW50 and get engine cooling for 10 minutes, have best performance than "A)" "B)" "C)"

If C3 fuel is limited, the luftwaffe give the "D)" BF 109 to the best pilots

Then I must call my wingman.

I think...
Is difficult to find performance charts for all these possible situations.

No I can understand

Because Oleg made a "combat simulator" and not make a "flight simulator"

For Cliffs of Dover....
if they will want to simulate the BF 109.. one day
They will go crazy :(

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustang (Post 399277)

...
I think...
Is difficult to find performance charts for all these possible situations.
...

This link has been posted a couple of times, but I'll do it one more time so nobody can miss it. All the performance data is here:

http://kurfurst.org/#engines