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I didn't read all your post Blackdog, but your prob spot on with what ever you said. :)
David Hayward, you said you didn't like to put people on ignore in case they have something interesting to say. Im now sure you wont. Goodbye. Ignored. |
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give the man the job |
Play Dark Blue World for now and all your fustration with this one won't seem so important.
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Sound progressing well -good Luthier!
I'm glad to hear that you are all alive and the sound is progressing well - liked the kid 'bluegrass band'. You have certainly got a very good sample of the general mood with all the previous posts?
I'm 'chipping away' at the FMB and discovering something new everyday. When you immerse yourself deeply in the FMB, you really realise that a hell of a lot of work has gone into the sim already and it is set-up for future development. The only thing I don't like is the 'Steam invasion on your computer'. It would be good to get a 'sound development update' vid? DFLion |
A new low for the "bash the devs"-crew.
A steadfast opposition to their "crusade for imaginary rights" must be a troll, LOL As long as there are people there will always be some with a different opinion. Your inability to cope with that, by using "ignore-lists" and your invulnerability to reason speaks volumes about you. At least some of you still find the time to actually enjoy the sim online, as i've seen on the syndicate - server. |
Ive had 150 hours of COD Robtek, plenty of them online, i want COD to do well, im trying to enjoy it now.
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Furbs,
most of us are doing that, enjoying, ok, in some cases trying to enjoy, the sim. Just remember, this sim is projected to stay with us for many years, what does a puny little delay of a few weeks for information and/or "The Patch" mean in the relation to that? |
Yes, but what worries me is this Robtek, every stage so far of COD has been shambolic, and i mean every stage, every milestone from the announcement in 2003 i think right through to the latest "update" from Luthier.
That does not give me hope for what ever they are trying to do. there is a base problem with COD, and its not going away any time soon. They have had my support and my money, they have had almost 5 months since release, at what point should we start seeing the devs pull their fingers out and getting things right? 6 months, a year? how long is too long Robtek? |
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For many who have been expressing their dissatisfaction I would probably say it's already too late. It obvious from some of the comments that there is nothing that the developers could do to appease some people and that they're just here to stir the pot. For the developers it will be to late as soon as a competitor releases an alternative that is better, has more features and is more stable. As a community we are quite a fickle bunch and It's in the developers best interest to get the problems sorted out as quickly as possible. They have a short window of opportunity. I would assume that Alienating enthusiast like your-self who have shown a long term commitment to the original series and community is not their intentions So far I haven't seen any evidence that the developers haven't been 'pulling their fingers out' (I'ld assume they'd be working as hard as they could be), but 'getting it right' may be a bit harder to achieve. Quick fixes may not be the best course of action in the long run. 'Hopefully' they are doing it right and hopefully it doesn't take too long. Cheers! |
1+ Skoshi Tiger,
you said it as i've would if i had your way with words :D :D :D |
man, there's no point. If anything I have learned yet another lesson about human nature: even when you think there can't be any other possible side to a discussion, here comes one.
Some of you are turning it into a matter of who's right and who's wrong, the sad reality is that we're all on the same side, we just have different patience thresholds. The truth is that objectively, no private business can behave like this and think to get away with it, and Maddox Games is no different. Yes, there's not much we can do, but the truth is that this kind of behaviour will only make things bitter until they prove that our concerns are unmotivated. |
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They presented facts!
some people took offense by the presentation. It seems as if there wasn't more to tell, atm. To evaluate the intelligence of the poster of the presentation by it is very daring, as some replyers took this post as witty, funny even hilarious. Regarding to the post before your last: So just give them some time to prove it, i'd say. |
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I guess i mean the lead and direction of the team and development has been shambolic "in my eyes". To me, some of the development decisions have been almost deliberately made to hinder COD. Thats where im coming from, i hope you understand me better now. |
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Here's how I would explain it to my grandma: "Grandma, the whole Luthier last post thing is like making a joke in a place where it's totally uncalled for, like, I dunno, a joke on concentration camps during a Jewish funeral?" :rolleyes: |
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The question is simply one of personality, being the "glass is half full or glass is half empty" type of person. Did you follow IL2? Then you know it's going to be fixed. The way updates in a forum are handled are as important to this process as a dancing mechanic is to fixing a car. It's nice, it's a bonus, ppl feel better but when it comes to fixing the product, it's totally redundant. Lot's of prima donnas here, though, prefering style over substance. |
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I have suggested that Luthier give us meaningful status reports on the progress of the key faults in a locked thread and if people want to scream at each other they can raise their own thread. I won't be in there because I am really only interested in what Luthier has to say. The reason some of us post and post again is in the hope that our posts will catch Luthier's eye among the other debris in here. We do not have any other way of getting his attention. What really worries me is that he must have heard our simple case but he still doesn't give his paid-up customers a simple status report on key defects in their product. I don't call that viewpoint 'disrespecting Luthier' but I think MG have fallen into the trap of disrespecting their customers. They are in default. I think the majority of people in these threads are behind MG and CoD or they just wouldn't be here. Some are happy to wait indefinitely for a patch, some of us are not. That doesn't give the former the right to speak on MGs behalf and it doesn't make the latter expectation wrong but you are right that we keep getting dragged into old arguments that actually do not need to exist and would not if MG would simply keep us properly informed. |
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"Out of place" jokes, btw, are a very subjective matter. For me this update was great fun and carried more of a message in it then others obviously were able to recognize. And it certainly has much more character in it then a clinical update with points to be fixed and release dates included. I suppose how you take it is a matter of character. Being the "glass is half full or half empty" kind of person. Do not expect to be able to push the "glass is half empty" attitude onto others just so. |
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It's posts like these which cause heated discussions, because they lack so much logic it's almost incomprehensible. If a feature of the game (let's call it a feature-feature for your sake) was working, but then was broken in a following patch, is that then a broken feature, or just a feature? Clearly the former, and clearly also a bug. Not everything can be fixed; most types of cancer are an example, however there is a timeframe in which the issue can be alleviated and brought back up to standard. This is possible in CloD, but if every customer was able to hide a broken mess of a game (for example) behind a facade of quirky features, then the devs would have no reason to improve the game. You really are every bored-developers wet dream, aren't you?! |
Aww.....bugger it, why don't we all arrange a date for the future where we all meet up in a bar, get trashed and have a massive punch up.....see who wins and that will settle it :grin:
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When it comes to software-products, there's always the risk of what looks like a fine glass of wine will be colored pisswater. When that happens, you also need to remember that most if not all software-products come with a very extensive EULA/ToS, which also very often clearly states that the product is sold "as is", and that it's your responsibility if you find it lacking. They also state that you can return the game to where you bought it, and if you choose to do that, it's a case between you and the seller, not between you and the producer. Caveat Emptor is in effect for any and all pieces of software you buy. |
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I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, because I believe that everyone is free to express their opinion, but I'm not standing for people being disrespectful of my opinion, showing an arrogance that is in line with the devs at the moment. ..still didn't get what you were talking about re. needing a girlfriend and getting a life though.. |
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but yeah, wish that a large group of us could catch up somewhere :) |
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Philip.ed
if you are able to look back in the threads for a few months, you would see that there were quite a few "Bug" - reports that called out unrecognized features! |
I've met many people in the il2 community over the years,from many different countries. Oleg Maddox and Ilya Shevchenko (Luthier), quite a few JG52, Danger dogz, various EAF members.
Never felt the need for a punch up when meeting them face to face ;) Forums bring out the worst in people, and trolls,who would never dream of meeting you in real life, or even speaking to you on comms, have a perfect arena to play in. Personally I'm going to stop asking and start waiting.If it works out,great. If it doesn't I shall just drift away. |
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And if you want to have a more elaborate explaination in regards to getting a life, then consider spending valuable life time on spamming a forum for nothing but a development update and your subjective understanding of what such an update should include. |
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It isn't, it works only for you in private, not in the public! |
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How's that for arrogance? |
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But consider this. You blamed the devs of buying time to fix this game. Going this route, you should be perfectly happy they released the game in the first place loooong before it was ready for that. Or let's put it in a different way. How, do you think are regular development updatesgoing to fix this game any faster? I will repeat that I personally would prefer regular updates myself. I, too, think that spending ten minutes to write down a forum post is not too much an effort and would please lots of folks that simply want to have a bit more clarity after waiting years for the IL2 follow up. However, I won't lose a night's sleep if this is not going to happen and one day we get a huge update bringing this game to a playable state at once (and even that is relative, as I have already logged 150 hours with CoD). Let's bring it down to the core of the question. Do you think Maddox Games is working on fixing the game, or aren't they? |
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My interpretation of common sense obviously differs from yours. The kind of black and white thinking that you show here is part of the problem, otherwise you couldn't have come to the conclusion that i wouldn't like a regular and effective update. I am over the "I want" - state, as it to often collides with reality. And i definitely don't need another progress report, as we got one with Luthiers post. |
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Thats one lucky lady, with a great job! |
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Do you understand my point better now? |
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truth is that you don't really know what jingles your bells more: the Bucker or the Babe ;-) |
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To call someone a troll for expressing his opinion in a civil manner does fall back on you.
And no, i didn't contradict myself, as you were so kind to point out, there is a difference between "i'd like", "i want" and "i need", easy to overlook when generalizing. |
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I don't care about the money I've spent: I would pay again to support guys who are developing a product for a small market like flight sims are. But if I'm investing in you then I would like to see what are you doing and I want to know the real state of the application. At start I blamed the anti epilessy filter because it was ruining the game... was that the real problem of CloD? If it was a beta version I might be more patient: fixing issues is easy since the game's base is solid... instead it's an alpha and makes me think of this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoGWuK5e_nY |
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I understand your point very well, but it applies more to a big publisher like Ubisoft or EA, not a small russian Sim development team that does not get paid for any extras, especially not for diretly communicating with an abusive fanbase that tends to rip of arms when presented a little finger and is full of an entitelment attitude that was unheared of just 20 years ago. In the past, development updates just caused people to flame even more because their specific problem was not adressed. In all seriousness, Maddox Games is still consiting of human beings, in doubt seriously overworked and tired human beings. Them not being able or willing to respond in a careful manner with all the sh+tstorms on this forum is not really so wonderous. |
Anyone getting deja vu?
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Quite a few of the other threads are going the same way.I think people are following each other around to continue the argument. Imagine if that happened in the pub.someone would get a slap ;) |
Man.....take a look at us, intelligent human beings, who by rights should have so much in common, and we end up here on most threads now, if we are honest with ourselves wouldn't we admit that despite the adversarial attitudes flying around here on occasion some of us exchange some quite pleasant replies......and it just feels so much better to stop arguing?
nobody is going to change anybodys mind here...thats clear, we really need to find a way to accomodate both sides. |
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We would all end up pissed over Dover in a hot air balloon and anybody that says that the landscape in COD is not that bad will be the first to go overboard... Luckily I never leave the house without a parachute :D
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Shall we all break for lunch?
back at 3pm? |
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Every software house is made of human beings, some are managed more efficiently than others. There is a lot of cloud networking being done today (look at the excellent Daidalos Team), so it's not even a matter of having to be in the office or speak the same language. |
see you on sunday.....I'm off to Greece......though I'll have my ipad so I might see you before ;)
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If you can't accept the simulation business being a very rough and small one, instead expecting german Mittelstand like cynism and clinical performance you have the wrong hobby, that simple. |
[QUOTE=Bewolf;315586]I simply go by Einstein "Stupidity is doing the same thing again and again and still expecting a different result". If you consider that arrogance, so be it.
Nascar anyone? |
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Comments like the one from Luthier are funny in a way, as we all know that they try hard to get this new sound engine implemented and are fed up with all the questions about the progress, but if we are absolutely strict, comments like this are just a offense to us customers as a proper sound engine should have been part of the initial release product. As already some people mentioned, for other products we are as well not willing to accept an unfinished one being sold as finished. And I am sure, that Luthier would as well complain if his OS would be as buggy as his game. The difference? The big company behind the OS? Simply not a valuable argument, as there are example of small software companies offering products almost free of bugs... Well, enough text now, I belong to the group of customers buying CloD with knowing about all the bugs and I still got several hours fun out of it and thanks to the fact that there are other things in life, I am waiting for the updates :cool: |
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On the other side, I have to say, that CoD was really very successful, mainly for PC and hardware dealer. ;) |
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Imho, a lot of trust and perspective here is simply destoyed by people that obviously consider market principles of a higher value then having a flight Sim. |
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It's called gaming industry, you're selling an entertainment product, but you're actually working and being paid for its development. If you couldn't get a good deal and didn't agree with the mentality it's down to your managing line, not to the customers. Let's put things into the right perspective here: while we're talking here there are constantly half a million people playing with Call of Duty: Black Ops (and this is only a datum for the PS3 users), a game that is as addictive as crystal meth and that, as an expert, you know better than me that it didn't take them long to develop. Our sims are just a minute niche compared to these monsters, and as that is not enough, the complicated work behind sims is way more demanding in terms of resources than any FPS, which just needs some cinematic looks and some graphic/gameplay gizmos, other than an extensive beta testing. As a consequence you will need a way more efficient team, but above all managing, of the resources you have to develop a simulator. The extra drive has to come from passion, otherwise you're gonna end up hospitalised with a bad nervous breakdown. The world of simulation is a different and complicated one, but if anything it needs some extra firm, careful managing, both in the production line and in the public relations. |
Luthier should of posted a couple of samples of the new sound. that would of more than satisfied most here.
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Actually, be careful what you wish for in the first place, because if we get professional business into this genre comparable to Call of Duty and the likes, expect to pay 20 bucks each time a new map is released, another 10 bucks for an aircraft DLC. Brave new world. |
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As for sims being a niche market: if you observed carefully the evolution of IL-2, you might have noticed that there was an (unnecessary?) development towards jets. Il-2 1946 became actually a huge testing bed for the flight model envelope and limitations (The Lerche was a bed for the helicopters potential), to see whether the behaviour of jets would work. As you know, modders made a fantastic F-86 Sabre and now even introduced Sidewinders. There has been a time, in the development of CoD, when Oleg thought that if having the right investors, his new flight model could have been used for a successor to the Microsoft Flight Simulator series. Something didn't happen, and the thing deflated back to its original project, but it's obvious that the potential is still there. Hitting the Flight Simulator core would surely be no niche product.. |
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Evidently, If pros would go into niche markets to look for a challenge, then they'd already be there. The rest it half true, but hardly relevant for the debate at hand. |
Bewolf, check your PM.
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This thread should be re-named the Lufbery Circle...
Only trouble is, everyone set 'unlimited ammo' and 'indestructible' to 'on'... It really is a shame that cod is such a rough diamond for now... I just think a little more optimism, instead of pessimism, would help the blood pressure levels in here :) I certainly understand how frustrated all you Experten guys feel, but as an expert in how to crash, I can still say this sim has a pretty amazing 'wow' factor every time I start her up! Am I a bad person? :-D It can only get better from here on out, don't you agree? Gone on, it won't hurt too much... life's too short as it is! Luthier... Please help us... Coz group hugs ain't my style! :-D:-D:-D |
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Agreed post of the year :D |
and with my last post i'm senior member yahoo! although i kinda don't know if that changes anything
indeed it's post of the year material from retrojet ;) |
this outstanding update by Luthier and the professionalism with which it was presented has convinced me to buy this game.
Game ordered |
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Flowers sent. |
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:-D |
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I have always believed that COD will get better all I want is the end of the moaning and updates by Luthier :confused: |
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Shucks! You guys taught me everything I know! It's just that I can tell exhaustion is setting in, and everyone deserves a beer or 3! :-D:-D:-D Time to shake hands, and agree to disagree... All for one, and one for the next patch! It's nearly Friday:mrgreen: It's just not worth beating each other up, when we're really all on the same team... Flight sim freaks to the end! :evil: :grin: |
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Maybe Luthier will show some mercy, and soooooooooooooooooon! :-D |
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Anyway...
See you up there! |
'Nuff said! ;)
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"Let's Get Small"..."When people are out of work we should give them a Banjo"
I love that line. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l31MSpojWTA |
Good to see we are on the way to reconciliation, stuff always seems to happen when I'm away, which leads me to this question....my second sector of the day yesterday, took me to kalamata air base in Greece, which is a training base I guess? Aside from the pc-9's I saw what looked like Buckeyes lined up on the military ramp, is that right? Also some other aircraft I didn't recognise, looking similar to the raf's old jet provost, any Greek air force buffs know what they might have been?
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Good to hear about the sound Luthier.
Luthier made more sense in one sentence than the following 50 pages of nonsense. I suggest you pay someone to read the forum for you, Luthier, and give you a short paragraph or two summary of the meaningful content if there is even that much. Be sure to provide psychiatric counseling for the reader. |
you think they'd be able to pad it out to a paragraph?
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Kalamata is indeed the basic flight training base for the local air force. Currently they use the T-6 Texan II turboprop (which i think is very similar to the Pilatus) replacing the older Cessnas (they had both a C-152 variant or something similar and T-37s in the past). The Buckeyes were supposed to also be replaced but the program has been delayed. They've got loads of retired F-5s they could use as lead-in trainers if they wanted to bring them back to active status and do it cheap, the other option is to shop for new airframes among the Aermachi trainers, Bae Hawks or the Korean T-50. Out of interest, are you visiting on vacation or is it work related? Please don't tell me there's some kind of airshow going on around Athens, i'm situated on the other end of the country up north and it's quite expensive to make the trip south :-P |
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Aaahh....of course, not pilatus but Texan 2's, so they were buckeyes, but no idea what the other things I described were? I guess they did look a bit like t-37's
I am here for work ,or was, I am in Firenze now, I fly private jets for charter, we often end up in military bases. Thanks |
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Or if that doesn't work, marry me and take me with you. :-D |
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Bad delivery...
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