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- IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/forumdisplay.php?f=189)

- - Thought for future expansions: Release Chronologically (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/showthread.php?t=18857)

+1 to what WTE_Galway said.

I would also add that Luftwaffe losses in the Battle of France were 30% higher than the Germans estimated they would be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WTE_Galway (Post 227642)

That is entirely untrue.

The so called "massively inferior and out of date" state of the Polish armed forces was initially just German propaganda and it then became convenient for the Allies to allow that false impression to continue as it helped allied morale to think that Poland had collapsed because of an "out of date poorly led army". Another myth was the cavalry charges against tanks. It never happened. What the Polish did have was very effective mobile anti tank units with anti tank guns that moved to new positions through rough terrain on horseback.

The myth has been perpetuated by Hollywood who like us to think that everyone in WWII was hopeless and useless except the US.

German Quartermaster General’s reports admitted the loss of 258 planes throughout the Polish Campaign. You can probably add to that another 100 or more damaged so severely as to need virtual rebuilding or not acknowledged directly as lost to enemy action.

A good estimate is around 350 Luftwaffe aircraft were lost all together over 6 weeks or so in Poland. Of those 350 around 120-150 were shot down in air to air combat. The rest were destroyed on the ground or shot down by AAA.

That compares VERY favorably with the 1100 the RAF managed down over the entire battle of Britain.

Note that the Polish airforce was still flying and active from secret airbases right up to the time the Russians invaded and the country surrendered. Up until the Russians invaded the Poles fought on hoping the British and French would grow a brain and realise teh entire German forces were occupied in the East and mount an invasion of Germany . If they had WWII might have been avoided.

Is the QM report the number of planes lost to enemy action, or simply the numbers of planes lost? You have to expect a certain amount of losses to simple accidents, regardless of enemy action. I find it hard to see how a QM could get away with under-reporting losses by nearly 50%

What planes were the Polish Airforce getting the kills in? My understanding was the most modern fighter they had at the time was the PZL P.11, and that the retractable gear designs never reached production. I'll grant you, if you get into a turnfight with a PZL you can get yourself shot down pretty quickly, and the P.11 is around the same speed as the unloaded Stuka, but it's not something I would consider a reasonable match against a 109E.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voyager (Post 227688)

Despite the fact that online IL2 servers consist mainly of fighter versus fighter combat its unlikely much of the air to air combat consisted of PZL P11 turn fighting Emils :D

Here you go, some details:

Quote:

http://worldwartwozone.com/forums/in...ir-force-1939/

The numbers of kills by Polish units are cited after J. Pawlak’s Polskie eskadry w wojnie obronnej 1939, which is an invaluable reference work for the subject. However, these numbers likely include a certain number of what should be classified as probable kills. Numbers given by Pawlak add up to 147 kills, while the actual number of confirmed kills in the Polish campaign, according to the war-time research by special Polish Air Force commission, was 126. There is also a likelihood of some over-claiming, but considering all circumstances, the actual number of German aircraft shot down by fighter pilots in the campaign was probably around 105-110. Given the enormous technical and numerical advantage of the Luftwaffe, these numbers show the excellent skills and determination of Polish fighter pilots, both of which they went on to prove in the Battle of Britain, and other campaigns on the Western front.

Brygada Poscigowa – Pursuit Brigade

III/1 Dywizjon Mysliwski – III/1 Fighter Wing

Commanding Officer: Capt. Zdzislaw Krasnodebski

Tactical Officer: Lt.Arsen Cebrzynski

Initial Strength: 17 PZL P.11c + 4 PZL P.11a

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 19.5

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 6

Aircraft Lost: 19

Aircrew Lost: 1 killed, 1 missing, 5 wounded

111 Eskadra Mysliwska – 111 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Capt. Gustaw Sidorowicz

Initial Strength: 9 PZL P.11c

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 7.5

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 3

Aircraft Lost: 9

Aircrew Lost: 1 missing, 4 wounded

112 Eskadra Mysliwska – 112 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Capt. Tadeusz Opulski

Initial Strength: 6 PZL P.11c + 4 PZL P.11a

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 9.5

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 3

Aircraft Lost: 10

Aircrew Lost: 1 killed, 1 wounded

IV/1 Dywizjon Mysliwski – IV/1 Fighter Wing

Commanding Officer: Capt. Adam Kowalczyk

Tactical Officer: Lt. Aleksander Gabszewicz

Initial Strength: 13 PZL P.11c + 9 PZL P.11a

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 26.5

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 9

Aircraft Lost: 15

Aircrew Lost: 1 killed, 4 missing, 4 wounded

113 Eskadra Mysliwska – 113 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Lt. Wienczyslaw Baranski

Initial Strength: 5 PZL P.11c + 5 PZL P.11a

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 15.5

Enemy Aircraft Damaged:6

Aircraft Lost: 7

Aircrew Lost: 1 killed, 1 missing, 1 wounded

114 Eskadra Mysliwska – 114 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Capt. Juliusz Frey

Initial Strength: 6 PZL P.11c + 4 PZL P.11a

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 8

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 3

Aircraft Lost: 8

Aircrew Lost: 3 missing, 3 wounded

Detached from III/2 Dywizjon Mysliwski – III/2 Fighter Wing

123 Eskadra Mysliwska – 123 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Capt. Mieczyslaw Olszewski

Initial Strength: 10 PZL P.7a

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 3

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 2

Aircraft Lost: 6

Aircrew Lost: 1 killed, 2 wounded

Krakow Army Air Arm

II/2 Dywizjon Mysliwski – III/2 Fighter Wing

Commanding Officer: Capt. Mieczyslaw Medwecki

Tactical Officer: Capt. Walerian Jasionowski

Initial Strength: 20 PZL P.11c

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 14

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 7

Aircraft Lost: 10 (4(!) shot down by Polish AA fire)

Aircrew Lost: 3 killed

121 Eskadra Mysliwska – 121 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Capt. Tadeusz Sedzielowski

Initial Strength: 10 PZL P.11c

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 8.5

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 4

Aircraft Lost: 6 (3 shot down by Polish AA fire)

Aircrew Lost: 2 killed

122 Eskadra Mysliwska – 122 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Capt. Mieczyslaw Wiorkiewicz

Initial Strength: 10 PZL P.11c

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 5.5

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 3

Aircraft Lost: 4

Aircrew Lost: none

Poznan Army Air Arm

III/3 Dywizjon Mysliwski – III/3 Fighter Wing

Commanding Officer: Maj. Mieczyslaw Mumler

Tactical Officer: Capt. Kazimierz Wisniewski

Initial Strength: 22 PZL P.11c

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 36

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 2

Aircraft Lost: 14

Aircrew Lost: 2 killed, 6 missing, 5 wounded

131 Eskadra Mysliwska – 131 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Capt. Jerzy Zaremba

Initial Strength: 10 PZL P.11c

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 11.5

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 1

Aircraft Lost: 3

Aircrew Lost: 3 missing, 3 wounded

132 Eskadra Mysliwska – 132 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Capt. Franciszek Jastrzebski

Initial Strength: 10 PZL P.11c

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 20.5

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 1

Aircraft Lost: 11

Aircrew Lost: 2 killed, 3 missing, 2 wounded

Pomorze Army Air Arm

III/4 Dywizjon Mysliwski – III/4 Fighter Wing

Commanding Officer: Capt. Florian Laskowski

Tactical Officer: Lt. Franciszek Skiba

Initial Strength: 18 PZL P.11c + 4 PZL P.11a

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 21

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 1

Aircraft Lost: 14

Aircrew Lost: 4 killed, 1 missing, 1 wounded

141 Eskadra Mysliwska – 141 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Capt. Tadeusz Rolski

Initial Strength: 10 PZL P.11c

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 6

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 1

Aircraft Lost: 7

Aircrew Lost: 2 killed, 1 missing, 1 wounded

142 Eskadra Mysliwska – 142 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Capt. Miroslaw Lesniewski

Initial Strength:6 PZL P.11c + 4 PZL P.11a

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 15

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: none

Aircraft Lost: 7

Aircrew Lost: 1 killed

Narew Operational Group Air Arm

Detached from III/5 Dywizjon Mysliwski – III/5 Fighter Wing

151 Eskadra Mysliwska – 151 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Lt. Jozef Brzezinski

Initial Strength: 10 PZL P.7a

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: none

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 1

Aircraft Lost: 6

Aircrew Lost: 1 missing, 1 wounded

Modlin Army Air Arm

III/5 Dywizjon Mysliwski – III/5 Fighter Wing

Commanding Officer: Maj. Edward Wieckowski

Tactical Officer: Capt. Kazimierz Wolinski

Initial Strength: 9 PZL P.11c + 1 PZL P.11a

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 8 (+ 2 balloons)

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 1

Aircraft Lost: 8

Aircrew Lost: 1 killed

152 Eskadra Mysliwska – 152 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Capt. Wlodzimierz Lazoryk

Initial Strength: 9 PZL P.11c + 1 PZL P.11a

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 8 (+ 2 balloons)

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 1

Aircraft Lost: 8

Aircrew Lost: 1 killed

Lodz Army Air Arm

III/6 Dywizjon Mysliwski – III/6 Fighter Wing

Commanding Officer: Capt. Stanislaw Morawski

Tactical Officer: Lt. Tadeusz Jeziorowski

Initial Strength: 10 PZL P.11c + 2 PZL P.11a + 10 PZL P.7a

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 14

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 3

Aircraft Lost: 18

Aircrew Lost: 6 killed, 3 wounded

161 Eskadra Mysliwska – 161 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Capt. Wladyslaw Szczesniewski

Initial Strength: 8 PZL P.11c + 2 PZL P.11a

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 6

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 3

Aircraft Lost: 9

Aircrew Lost: 2 killed, 2 wounded

162 Eskadra Mysliwska – 162 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Lt. Bernard Groszewski

Initial Strength: 10 PZL P.7a

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 8

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: none

Aircraft Lost: 9

Aircrew Lost: 3 killed, 1 wounded

I am also against too much early war stuff like poland. What's so interesting about it? It's short and it's unbalanced. Even for offliners, what's the challange fighting against p11 when you have a 109? Or the other way around: what's so interesting in fighting a far supperior ennemy?
It would also be an extremly short campaign, both online and offline.
I think that, for these reasons, the few ressources should be put in some other fronts

Quote:

Originally Posted by nearmiss (Post 227598)

I cannot understand why anyone would want a Polish or French addon.

They were both stomped into the dust... in record time. It was like take off and die for the Polish and French pilots.

So... a sad part of history, nevertheless there can still be those who want to enough historical abuse. LOL.

You are an arrogant ignorant :rolleyes:.
"stomped into the dust... in record time", "It was like take off and die for the Polish and French pilots"... jesus, it was not a video game, talking like that about ppl dying defending their country in inferior machines is immature.

If it was take off and die, where did those luftwaffel loses came from LOL :rolleyes:?
Luftwaffel was performing like a piece of sh.t in these campaigns, when you take into account their technical and numerical superiority.
285 aircraft lost to all operational causes, poles 333, it's laughable :rolleyes:.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GnigruH (Post 227780)

I doubt that anyone on this forum (nearmiss included) underestimates the bravery or effectiveness of the Polish pilots. I think he was just doubting the attractiveness of such a campaign to modern simmers! (correct me if I am wrong nearmiss)

One of the things that make the Polish pilots fight heroic was that they took off knowing that they would be facing a more numerous opponents in aircraft of a more 'modern' design.

To my mind this makes what they achieved even greater. Despite this, after their homeland was overrun they retained their fighting spirit and despite all odds made their way west and continued the fight from France and then England. Just at a time when England needed as many highly skilled and experienced pilots as possible.

There will be those among this community that will carry on about Germany never intending to go on with Operation Sea lion. Fortunately with the help of the Polish pilots carrying on the fight from England this argument was never put to the test.

well, in the VOW we had a Poland 1939 campaign.
The only fact that made it "ok" for the red pilots was that in the missions were not much Bf109 (we used the E-4/B because of its lower performance) and the weird DM of the P.11 :D
There were also two missions where the P.11s had to fight Slovakian B.534 .. funny fights.

BUT, i also cant imagine that a lot of players would have fun flying, or better fighting in, a P.11 (or the polish bombers) in CoD qualitiy...at least not online.

France 1940 would be something different - that was a close call. Both sides with almost equal equipment. But i doubt we will see a french campaighn from the official 1C side. Perhaps 3.party in the future.

Chronological releases seem kinda skewed through my eyes actually

If I've understood their plans it's going to be BOB, Korea, Moscow (, and then maybe the Med?) which seems better to my ears since the people screaming for Mustangs and early jets will get alittle something, then I will hopefully get my precious Butcher Bird with Moscow, and so on
covering plane types faster than a strictly chronological plan :P

Just think of it like this: we will get early RAF and LW first, then we'll get post and late-war U.S and North-Korean/Soviet types, then we jump back to early-mid LW and Soviet types, and from there we seem to be getting early-mid RAF(and maybe early U.S) and LW+Italy

Sounds very good to me, but then again I love crap-planes as much as I love the Mustang and the Fw190D-9 ;)

And if the Med will be the next theatre from MG, then what's after that from Galba?
the six-day war? the fall of Berlin? :)

Quote:

I think he was just doubting the attractiveness of such a campaign to modern simmers! (correct me if I am wrong nearmiss)

If that's the case, he could do it in less arrogant way, with different words :rolleyes:.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravenous (Post 227806)

The Korean add on was by a third party who licenced the engine. As far as I know this hasn't changed, Just that the some of the developers from the Korean product have Joined Oleg to get the engine and Cliffs of Dover released before they can complete thir work.

Cheers!