..It occurred to me for example in a mission where there were il2 bombing p39 defending bombers vs 190 and 109 attacing (a kursk campaign extract). I see this behaviour in more than one 109 just like you said creating a "sharp hook" at the bottom of the vertical uber-dive of A.I.s planes.

I just noticed this:

8 Average Ki-43 III vs. a "box" of 3 Veteran B-24J in QMB. 5000m over the Okinawa map. No advantage to either side.

The Ki-43 don't make head-on shots on the initial pass and don't make high-side attacks subsequently. Instead, they go for tail-chase attacks which are much more dangerous.

Even worse, the B-24 try to act like fighters! None of them stick together in formation and I actually saw one of them doing a barrel roll. All of them will try to turn to avoid much more nimble fighters, often pulling high-G turns that have the plane "standing on its wing."

Realistically, the bombers should tighten up their formation and possibly "jink" a bit when attacked. If one gets separated, it should "corkscrew" to try to spoil the attackers' aim while rejoining formation. Also, the rest of the formation should slow down to try to protect the damaged bomber as long as possible. As it is, by trying to maneuver like fighters, they seriously reduce the accuracy of their guns and give up the coordinated firepower of the "bomber box."

In real life, the sort of high-G turns I saw would also rip the bombs off their shackles and send them through the bomb bay doors.

It seems to me that, if it isn't already in the game, TD needs to have different AI for heavy bombers and similar planes (e.g., planes like the PBN or H8K) vs. smaller and faster attack bombers. Bombers also need different behavior routines for when they're loaded vs. unloaded.

Edit: Same behavior for B-17G and B-29. And, even when the U.S. heavies are loaded with bombs!

This is even more stupid behavior for a B-29 since they have the speed to outrun the Ki-43. They shouldn't be diving, turning and trying to dogfight. Instead, they should be keeping level, tightening formation and accelerating.

Dear pursivant , sadly ME, YOU and BEARCAT are the few other here are writing here with nonsense, as you can easly notice from DT anticipations on 4.12 release that there isn't ANY mention about correct all these A.i. bad behavior we diligently are reporting to the Daidalos Team.
They are going to release 4.12 with just other things improved... ..but IMHO way less important compared to try to resolve all this A.I. "bugs" we still notice in 4.11 :(

Daidalos Team have never reported bug fixes in development updates for the next patch. Wait for the readme before you complain.

This.

Respectfully, I disagree. My experience is that TD listens to the fans and works hard to correct their mistakes. Over the course of the past 3 years TD has worked hard to fix things that 1C/Maddox couldn't be arsed to fix during the previous 7-8 years of the game's existence.

As an example, the vast improvement in fighter AI in the 4.11 was literally a game-changer for me. AI fighters are a real challenge to beat, unlike before when I was routinely winning fights against entire squadrons. Bomber gunner behavior has finally been fixed to deal with the dreaded "sniper" problem.

In the upcoming 4.12 patch, there are lots of little fixes fans have asked for for years, like customized sounds, aircraft which taxi in an intelligent fashion and the ability to padlock ships. In previous patches, we've seen small fixes to things like sky appearance and 3d fixes for some of the older aircraft.

But, AI programming is tricky work, there are lots of planes in the game, lots of different missions and many different tactics. Even worse, "fixing" one aspect of AI behavior might "break" another aspect. I accept that the 4.11 AI wasn't perfect, but I'm confident that TD will fix the problem.

Anyhow, dogfighting bombers is an easy problem to fix. There's less AI programming in making a plane keep station with the other planes in formation, fly straight and level or try to run away than there is in making them try to dogfight. Even if the AI were programed so isolated bombers try to "corkscrew" or hug the ground (if flying low and no ventral gunner) it would probably still be easier to program.

More challenging for AI would be for isolated bombers to try to turn to present the most number of guns against few attacking fighters to trying to "jink" or "break" in such a way as to spoil attacks (e.g., slipping or diving just as fighter making a high-side attack starts its attack run).

:rolleyes: Hmm.. Bomber gunner sniper behavior fixed you told?.. Respectfully I don't agree m8 , for me Is really equal as ever was in 4.10, moreover as you said we now have A.I. bombers acting like fighter "Bug" too now that was not present in 4.10 for example.. things are going back instead of forward I feel..

And I repeat: I thank all DT for their FREE work for all us here, but if A.I. code is so hard to modify as someone like to mention here that is a mere and sterile observation, then I think DT will better not even to try again to modify nothing about A.I. code as to prevent other bad evolution of the feature of A.I... is just too bad now.

This is in QMB, right? I think this is a QMB related issue, if I try to shoot down bombers with at least a decent defensive armament in QMB from anything close to 6'o clock, even with significant altitude and speed advantage, I'm meat on a platter even for average AI. In "normal" missions, if I do anything else than parking behind a Bomber with average AI, I'm usually fine, even if I approach from 6'o clock. Coming from above and off-angle or head on versus normal AI I hardly get hit ever. And Bombers don't do some silly "dancing" as sometimes happens in QMB.
Maybe QMB somehow still uses 4.10 AI?

I think TD should continue developing AI. I really liked the improvement they did with 4.11. AI working as a team against you is really nice. Also I haven't encountered the AI doing inverted barrel rolls and accelerating at the same time in 4.11. Their evasion patterns have become more convincing to me -most of the time. And don't forget the ridicolus Bf109 behavior, spiral climb to xxxx meters, then dive, and climb again in 4.10. Haven't seen that in a while(Except in QMB). And even if some new bugs occur, no big problem - they will be ironed out with the next patch.

Yes. And you might be right that it's a QMB vs. FMB issue. I'm a bit surprised if it is, though. I thought that AI was independent of FMB vs. QMB.

This is as it should be. For flexible guns shooting a plane attacking from the rear with no angle of deflection is the easiest shot to make. Even a rookie should be able to hit planes that attack like this.

That doesn't seem right. The second easiest shot to make is against a head-on attack with no angle of deflection.

Moving along two axes (e.g., diving and closing on the target) isn't that hard to track for a defensive gunner. Moving along all three axes (i.e., diving, slipping and closing - like with a high-side attack) is a challenge even for a good defensive gunner.

I'm not sure that they do, since they don't have that sniper-like accuracy anymore, especially not at long ranges (remember back before 4.11 where a B-17 tailgunner could devastate your Bf-109G or kill you at 600 meters range?). Part of my original complaint came from the fact that by trying to "dance around" the bombers defensive fire wasn't nearly as accurate as it should be.

Yes. And if you replay the same mission (using AI on both sides) you'll notice that each side uses different techniques each time - enough that sometimes one plane will win, sometimes the other will win, based on who chose what tactics.

What I'd like to see is, in addition to team tactics is realistic high altitude/level bomber behavior - Ace or veteran crews will have tighter formations, lone bombers will corkscrew or "jink" while still keeping relatively low G to allow their gunners to shoot effectively, and high altitude bomber formations will randomly change course every 30 seconds over heavy flak concentrations to spoil the gunners aim.

-AI Rookie flying A6M in front of you evades by "riding" the snap stall until behind you -seen this often. Also seen twice with Rookie AI in Bf109E or F. They initiate the stall by pulling hard and getting one wing to stall, start circling mainly around the yaw axis while keeping an AoA of around 30 degree. Thus they slow down while presenting a somewhat difficult target. This is not an accidental and uncontrolable stall which happens when puling too hard, because they always start flying straight and level as soon as you overshoot them -of course nose pointing your direction.

-I think this has been adressed before but at a quick glance I couldn't find it: AI drops bombs as soon as command to attack is given.


Yes, if you "park" on the bombers rear quarter, and if you do that against average AI, you will get shot to pieces regularly. But do it with some altitude & speed, maybe from 5'o clock, and stay outside ~300m -you will succeed most of the time-except in QMB. Maybe I'm wrong, but I do think AI in QMB does behave different than anywhere else in the game.

This rarely happens -at least to me. I try to set up my head-on passes from above or below, because its easier to avoid ramming the target. And most of the time I don't guess the bombers heading perfectly right. In the end, that presents the gunner with a ~2*3m sized target (frontal cross-section of a fighter) coming in at 230m/s slightly off-angle and out of plain. Average AI should miss this shot regularly IMHO. And even if they score a hit, most bombers have rather weak frontal armament -so if this isn't your unluckiest day, you should be able to pull it off.

Hmm, I don't think that better AI should have tighter formations, they should have less trouble keeping in formation though. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't USAAF formations have set distances for their boxes? And considering large bomber formations of more than two flights they shouldn't maneuver to avoid FlaK, as I don't think this was done in WW2. I think most of the time keeping in formation was just enough of a task.

I can't speak for anyone else but while these AI issues that I mentioned are indeed quite annoying .. I understand that TD is doing this work for free and on their own time and I do greatly appreciate it. I hope that at some point sooner rather than later these issues can be addressed fully.. and the thing that kills me is.. sometimes they actually do work right, which was what prompted my question about resetting the AI in another post.. thinking that perhaps that was the issue.Just last night in an online mission I was attacking a two man flight and I told my wingman who was AI to attack fighters.. he promptly changed his attitude to pursue the wingman of the bandit I was chasing .. which really surprised me because usually they break off to attack the target I am in pursuit of ...

Keep in mind folks that the QMB and FMB don't make a lick of difference in terms of the AI. It's the same algorithms no matter what. The QMB isn't anything more special than a bunch of mission templates with the ability to adjust the type of plane and altitude. Everything else is just a .mis file to correspond to that situation.

I haven't seen a sniper gunner since 4.11 came out but apparently some still are. Any good track files with examples? Apologies if some have been posted already. If there is a problem... document it to the n'th degree.

Track files are no longer valid.. I have tried to make a few tracks and when I play them back they are all out of synch.. The guns are firing when there are no planes. even though I know I was shooting at a plane.. Maybe it is just with mods. I haven't tried it with stock yet.

I gess it will be the same. That was allready explained somewhere in the forum. The tracks are not realy a record, but a new loaded game with all the initial parameters and all the movements/actions you made. But on the load the game uses random things for AI. So, this is like the butterfly efect, and at the beggining that AI plane took a little different manouver, in the end you are shooting nothing. When this happened to me i passed the same track several times until i got the wright one.

You're right. I'm stating it the wrong way. Ace and Veteran bombers should have an easier time keeping formation and flying at assigned distances. Average planes might straggle a bit, or very rarely accidentally collide. Rookies might straggle more and might accidentally collide with other planes in their formation if they panic.

For fighters and other single-engined planes, Situational Awareness should go down at virtually any level of skill if you're flying in tight formation. Station-keeping requires a certain amount of work. In particular, rookies often focused on keeping formation rather than looking out for danger. Looser formations should allow maximum situational awareness.

I'm not sure if this is an AI, a GUI or a graphics problem.

Some planes with manually-controlled multi-stage superchargers (e.g., the La-7) start the game with the supercharger set to the wrong setting in high altitude Quick Combat scenarios, causing the plane to produce black smoke trails until the player fixes the problem.

If you set the plane to autopilot before fixing the supercharger setting, either the AI-controlled plane doesn't switch to the proper supercharger stage or the smoke trails associated with a too-rich fuel mixture don't go away after it does so.

As a test to see what I mean, try setting up a QMB scenario with an La-7 starting at 5000 meters, then immediately switch to autopilot and then external view.

It appears that AI aircraft have no idea what to do about V-1s. Even if the whole point of the mission is shoot down V-1s, and there's nothing else in the sky to shoot, and the V-1 is right in front of them, AI aircraft will ignore them!

It seems like it would be a very simple bit of programming for Average, Veteran or Ace aircraft to either take sniper shots at a distance, or try to "run down" the V-1 and flip it using their wingtip. Rookies would take shots from within the blast radius.

Ace AI IL2 Sturmovik rocket accuracy
 

In case it has not been reported yet.

In a mission I built in the FMB I have some late 1943 IL2 aircraft attacking some German tanks. The Ace IL2 aircraft hit the tanks with their cannons right on the mark, but when they fire rockets the rockets always hit the ground pretty far behind the tanks.

The firing of the rockets, machine guns and rockets is all done in one second at the most so it looks like when the aircraft's sight is on for the guns and cannons, it is low for the rockets.

I have tried altering the flight path and position of the waypoints in relation to the tanks, thinking that maybe the angle of attack was too shallow and that did not help at all.

This is a real problem...and since I make and test all of my own missions, I see it all the time. Without a doubt, the AI are aiming their rockets at a point too 'early' or 'below' their intended target. This applies to both moving and static targets.

If I remember correctly, this started a few patches back when rocket trajectories were given an overhaul to to act more 'realistically'. I have no problem with that, but it looks like the AI was not 'updated' to account for the new trajectories, and so appear to be aiming their rockets as if they were using the 'old' rocket trajectory.

As a result, the AI ends up 'walking' their rockets towards the target, with the hope of hitting the target with their last 2 rockets. Many times, none of the rockets come close to hitting the target.

I understand that in the early years of IL-2 the rocket trajectories were pretty much arcade-like in that they flew more like a laser beam. I like the way they behave now in a more realistic manner. However, I do think the AI needs to be reprogrammed to aim these rockets in a more efficient manner.

Check out the simple test mission I have uploaded. The AI is set to Ace.

*After viewing this test mission a number of times, I think I know why the AI is always initially hitting well 'below' the target.

First of all, you will notice that the AI is still firing it's guns and rockets at the same time. (I've never liked this but this has been present since day one.) Notice that the bullets are pretty much on target. This means that the AI is 'aiming' with his guns, not his rockets. (In the old days of IL-2, if you placed your gunsight on the target, you could hit the same spot with both your bullets and your rockets.

After the the rocket trajectory was adjusted, they now drop off in a more realistic manner. You have to aim 'above' the target if you want to hit it. Now back to the test mission. Since the AI is hitting the target with bullets, it is obviously placing it's gunsight on that spot. However, since it is also firing it's rockets at the same time, because of the new trajectories, the rockets are dropping off and hitting well below the target.

Here is my idea of how to resolve this issue. First of all, if the AI is attacking with rockets DO NOT program the AI to fire it's guns until all of it's rockets have been released. (Since the bullets and rockets now have drastically different trajectories, one of them will be off-target for sure...unless your target is a large one, like a ship.)

Secondly, the AI needs to be reprogrammed to 'aim' the rockets we have now (with the more realistic trajectory).


Aviar

Every time the AI use rockets for ground attacks, IL-2s that is, the rockets detonate in the air like the timed rockets do. So they rarely end up destroying their target.

Check the timer rockets at his plane

Cant z.506B Makes Landings On Grass And Taxies
 

Sorry if this has been mentioned earlier, but here goes just in case it's still news.
I observed the Cant z.506B seaplane landing smoothly on grass of Normandy QMB map. It seemed able to taxi as well; like a ski plane sliding over snow.

Incidentally, I think it would be interesting if seaplane AI were programmed to detect rivers so they can make landings if inland. I do not know if this would be easy to do though.

Seaplanes Able To Land On Grass Without Damage
 

Here's a postscript to my Cant z.506B note above. I discovered that H8K Emily, Ju 52 seaplane and PBN Nomad also can land on grass without apparent damage. Perhaps this has to do with the game engine and goes beyond the models themselves. Cheers!

Confirmed. Moreover, in 4.11, where Z506 was unable to take off with full load, such planes usually followed their flight path at zero altitude and ended up peacefully riding in the Lybian desert until they run into a hill or a British armed column...

Strange AI behaviour
 

Hi.

I saw a post couple a weeks ago, about strange combat behaviour on the Ki-43. Couldn't check it yet, but looks like the Buffalo Mk. I got the same issues.

When using Autopilot, and for the rest of AI planes, the plane goes well on manouvers and dogfight. But, when the pilot is in position to fire the guns, he starts to fly as a dumb. It can't keep the aim, the pilot keeps raising the nose, loosing contact with the enemy, then starts to do strange stuff with the ailerons and rudder, as if the plane is "digging" in the air.

To test: try a default map on the QMB. Select at least 4 Buffalos against 4 fighters. Try to use the Autopilot, and check the other AI guys flying too.

What happens?

Thanks in advance.

batistadk

Ok. More tests, and more intriguing questions.

Looks like the Hurricane Mk. IIc and Mk. II Field Mod. are suffering from the same problem as the Buffalo. Interesting data: all these planes are showing this AI issue when pitched against Bf. 109E models, including the Buffalo, earlier.

I'll continue with tests, trying to discover what's happening.

batistadk

That's it.

Looks like FM, in general, have changed a bit. There's a lot of diferent situations where planes doesn't respond normally. I-153, I-16, LaGG, Ki-43 and others that I have already cited are suffering from this strange behaviour.

Looks like is something related to the planes maneuverability, and enemy's too. I have absent from IL-2 for at least two years, but can remember everything was normal until 4.10. With no doubt, something changed on 4.11.

Maybe a little late to 4.12, but TD could take a look at this on 4.13? Or this problem was already related?

Thanks for all the effort put on this, TD.

batistadk

Five further quirks of AI.

When the player aircraft is set to AI settings the pilot/crew doesn't automatically bail out if the plane is fatally damaged. By contrast, crew in "native" AI planes bails out normally.

In some cases, even Ace AI is a bit too eager to bail out. For example, crew will often bail out of a plane with just ailerons or rudder out, or with just a missing vertical stabilizer rather than trying to get home, ditch or crash land. In other cases, AI fighter pilots will bail out of a plane which has severe damage but which isn't on fire and is still flyable - usually due to severe cockpit area damage.

In a few cases, Ace AI will briefly shoot when there is no target to hit. Typically, AI will shoot a very short (0.5-1 second) burst when they are passing high above an enemy in a 1-to-1 fight.

Ace AI will sometimes give up far too much positional advantage when engaging an enemy 1-to-1 starting head-to-head. That is, the plane will "corkscrew" out of the way of the enemy's guns, but then turn at least 60 degrees away from their original course, allowing the enemy to do a high-speed yo-yo/candelle turn right onto their tail.

Ace AI is very aggressive about making head-on shots against fighters. I've reported this before, but on closer inspection, it's really obvious that AI is ignoring factors which would make such a move a losing proposition - like going against a heavily-armed opponent or if flying a more fragile (e.g., inline vs. radial engine) plane. Furthermore, when Ace AI they do take head-on shots they shoot very long bursts and don't break off soon enough. This usually results in at least one mortally-wounded plane/pilot followed by a head-on collision.

While a head-on attack is valid if you've got a less maneuverable and slower plane, if you've got longer ranged guns (e.g., 0.50 caliber MG) it would make sense to make a quick (1-2 second at most) shot at extreme range (300-500 meters out) and then do a quick barrel roll or diving turn to get yourself out of your enemy's line of fire.

The exception might be if you're over home territory and are flying for an air force which was noted for "taran" style kills - VVS, IJN, IJA or some Luftwaffe.

Anyone else notice that the Sherman tanks in IL2 make no noise when they shoot their main gun? Like they have a silence fitted or something....

M4A2 (76) W Shermans have no sound. M4A2 Shermans have sound.

...concerning the gun.

I hope this can be fixed in the future.
http://www.creditgif.com/02.jpghttp://www.creditgif.com/28.jpghttp://www.creditgif.com/03.jpghttp://www.creditgif.com/05.jpg
http://www.creditgif.com/04.jpghttp://www.creditgif.com/29.jpg

'Autopilot' is not the same as 'AI' - technically. Ok, it is more than a simple autopilot, its rather an autofighter. It lets you have just more control about your plane. If it was like AI, it would bail out, even if you don't want it to.

Just don't expect it to be a full AI. Its YOU, who shall play the game! :)

Good finding! It can be fixed for sure.

Talking about AI and autopilot - both drop flaps at speeds, which normally make the flaps jam. Do they really have to do that, or can it be fixed? Spitfires even use half flaps, which is completely unrealistic (there was no such thing in Spitfire as half-flaps, it was either up or down)
Sometimes I use autopilot + time compression to speed up things in a mission, but when I switch off the autopilot, it turns out that my aircraft has flaps jammed in down position. Very irritating.

Terrain avoidance
 

Recently I've been playing a USMC campaign at Iwo Jima and on a ground attack mission my flight were tasked with striking enemy bunkers at the foot of Mount Suribachi. The DGEN system routed us in from the opposite side of the mountain to the target, resulting in most bombs hitting the side and summit rather than the bunkers! I worked around that by opening the mission in FMB and altering the approach to target. (DGEN can be quite stupid at times. I've seen AI Stukas start their dive at as little as 1500 meters)
The main problem is that on subsequent passes my AI companions make attacks from angles that lead to them crashing into the side of the mountain!
Can anything be done to improve terrain avoidance?

Yes thats somhow annoying.
Leading an AI or Autopiloted plane throug a series of waypoints through a gorge (Mountains Map on stock or Grand Canyon Map with DBW) will mostly end up in crashes. AC-behaviour is completely messed up in comparision to the same set of Waypoints in a plains environment.

Also it happens when a plane tries to land in some airfields like Kara's

I've been playing Amagi's Disaster on the Frontiers eastern front campaign for a long time now. With the new AI behavior in the v4.11 patch, I now routinely get Veteran and Ace Bf109F pilots regularly getting owned by Rookie and Novice I-16s. The problem is that the AI 109 pilots are trying too hard to stay behind the I-16s when the latter makes violent evasive maneuvers. They end up getting into a slow turn fight against the I-16s, often at low altitudes, an area where the Russian aircraft holds a distinct advantage. Too many times now, experienced 109 pilots are getting themselves shot down by rookie I-16 pilots (Type 18s and 24s), and even by I-153s. The regularity at which this occurs is frustrating if you're playing the German side, and has been a definite immersion killer for an early eastern front scenario.

Previously, before the AI upgrade, German AI 109 pilots always made fast sweeping attacks on enemy fighters and was obviously avoiding getting into a slow, low turn fight situation. They routinely dominated Polikarpovs in early war scenarios, as was the case historically. Not anymore, as things turn into a bit of a mess now.

Tank busting with MGs, particularly with LMGs, is a pathetic effort IMHO. Planes with a light onboard armament (like Cr-42s or R-10s) should waive their attack on hard targets once they've dropped their bombs. Similarly, JABO 109s should immediately disengage and switch to pure fighters once they've run out of cannon shells. Or am I wrong?

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y19...psa1735014.jpg

This is a 16 vs 16 fight with all my guys set as Aces and the enemy a mix of rooks & average.. Notice I have 5 out of 16 planes converging on me and not a friendly in range to do much ... I posted about this already .. but this was a classic example..

One thing I have noticed... If you mix up the commands between Attack Fighter, Target All and Cover Me (for wingman) and lastly Anyone Help.. the AI do better job of fighting as a team. Even with each other... They friendlies behave more like the gang banging bad guys do..

Two most irritating me things in AI behaviour.
When I have enemy on my 6, he is shooting with some deflection, and thats ok. BUT why he is making correction in his aiming while I am under his windscreen? He shouldn't see me! This looks like AI is flying with cockpit view off.
Second thing is when I'm trying to shake him off with simple scissors he ramm into my plane instead break or go over me to repeat attack or whatever.

And maybe not important much thing, before 4.11 AI pilot followed his head with his target. After this patch he looks straight.

Rereading this post, while it's wrong for an Ace level wingman to be nowhere to be seen (unless he got shot down), I think that it's appropriate for Average or Rookie pilots to "pile on" to a single target and get sucked into a tail chase.

Saburo Sakai describes a situation where there was briefly a situation where a Hellcat was chasing a Zero, with a Zero chasing the Hellcat, with a Hellcat chasing that Zero, and a Zero on the tail of that Hellcat - and every plane shot down the plane ahead of it, leaving behind just one Zero.

That sort of deadly target fixation was a very common problem. Even Veteran or Ace pilots could fall victim to it, setting themselves up for defeat when they lost Situational Awareness.

But, like I said, unless your wingie has run into problems, if he's Ace level AI, he SHOULD be clearing your tail. Preferably with a high side attack against the bandit closest to you.

Different behavior in coops and single player missions
 

I have been having some problems with AI pilots engaging in very strange behavior in coops. In one mission the AI flew over their target and dropped their bombs a Kilometer beyond the assigned map coordinates. When the same mission is ran as a single player mission the same AI flight flew normally and hit their target.

I hosted the same mission again as a coop and the same strange behavior was noted with the AI completely missing their target.

Anyone else every experience this problem?

What is different between coop and single player missions?