when bailing out behind enemy lines means death
 

Yes they did though few of them survived to tell: sometimes they prefered to stay in a burning/hard smoking aircraft rather than to bail out above enemy controlled areas. Especially on eastern front (for obvious reasons), they would try to join friendly territory at all costs.

Famous example: HSU Georgiy Golubev story -Pokryshkin's wingman- reported in Dmitry Loza's "Attack of the Airacobras" (p. 162 to 165). He managed to stay in his burning aircraft controlling the rudder with only one foot, because the fire started to burn his other one. Despite blinding smoke in the cockpit that caused irritation of his eyes he flew his aircraft until he was sure he was behind friendly lines, then only bailed out.

Yes but what he didn't do was go on the attack.. either of the guy who shot him or some other guy.. he tried to leave the theater as quickly as possible ......

Right
 

True he did not go on the attack in this particular example, though he had to dodge two attacks by a 109 pilot before leaving the theater IIRC.

Anyway, I just posted this in order to give an example. That said, in general, of course, i'm sure a pilot would bail out immediately, and it should be like that in game.

Offline DFs:

The AI still can see through its engine cowling... Beside the crazy aerobatic dances that no ordinary pilot would ever do once in his lifetime... try this.

Go into a tight turn with the AI on your six.. keep your turn until the AI does it's stupid 'dance'. At this point it cannot see you - you then change your direction slightly... the AI immediately stops it's dancing, realigns then dances again for the next shot - way to go !!.

Besides that I'm sure the FMs have been badly fudged.. I mean really bad.
The Spit seems to be able to turn on a tickey without any blackout.. then blackouts with no apparent reason ??

Plenty work to be done here.. don't be biased - just do it as it is/should be ?

Doing AI work is tricky... that said the AI does not see through their cowling anymore. They used to but not anymore. Now they make a guess as to where you are and estimate for blind shooting just as a human would do. I think they still have to cheat a bit with regards to some levels of awareness and target acquisition. It's difficult because you can make the ultimate game AI but only be able to run a few of them at a time due to the CPU cycles required or you can find a balance point with some fidelity issues and be able to run the dozens of AI that are required to make this look good.

Sounds like placebo effect. I haven't had random blackouts, and it's possible to blackout in turns, although I avoid it.

Ah, another conspiracy-theory. :rolleyes:

Do a quick mission..
Crimea map, dora-9 vs spitIXs, aces + 4 each.. record and watch the tracks...

People complained about the AI before TD.. see it now ;)

I'm not sure whether HSFX6 has anything to do with it... but the AI behaved the same before the mod

Another point ..:)
Not sure whether it's a visual artifact or an upgrade that was mentioned in earlier versions
The AI control surface positions, Rudder and elevator, are in extreme positions... complete stall should occur.
Are we still looking at certain ..AI invincibility which cannot be ironed out in the game engine. ??

No it's not a conspiracy, but a note for the developers.
I've been at the game just as long, if not years longer than yourself.. and know the nuances of the versions.
:)

It seems so as every time they know exactly where to 'blind' shoot with a combination of all control surfaces, nearly a 100% of the time, which is an impossibility for any human, hence AI :grin:

Not only that.. with all the control surface agitation the AI still maintains a superior speed advantage.

I've practised my skills with the ace AI for years, but have never seen anything like this... it's like chalk and cheese. As I said .. a BIG AI fudge has occurred.

One doesn't mind the ability to 'lead shoot', but the ability to place the a/c in any 3D position without 'costs'... is a bit much. This in not coming from a noob.. it's coming from a 4000hr plus on FW190s sim person.

;)

If you're running a mod, it's not DT's problem. Simple as that.

It doesn't matter how long you've been here (and I have to wonder how you can claim that you've been here longer when you don't know anything about me). You won't know any of the 'nuances' until you've programmed it yourself.

You really think their AI is worse? And I'm supposed to believe that you know the 'nuances'? Psh.

That would be my only gripe about the AI, make them adhere to the same AI as the player.
Other than that its much much better than before.

Well, that's rather normal, air duels are like dancing, what you do depends a lot on what enemy is doing.

AI react on your plane attitude not on your control inputs.

That's not intended behavior, we will fix it when we find exact cause for this.

What exactly you have in mind?

It took purpose built monster machine to beat human champion in chess. Chess is great game but you always have same position at the start. Same number and type of pieces. Movement is limited on 8x8 board. Compare that with Il2, 300+ planes, combinations of types, numbers and positions are infinite. And you want AI to make decisions in a fraction of a second. This is hard task for AI.

That is correct.

:grin: What to do now, some says AI shoots too good and some says it is too bad? No way to please everybody.

That's true and that's very hard situation for AI, detailed collision check can be very time consuming so some compromises are necessary to keep game smooth.

That's probably related to one bug in ground avoidance logic, it should be better in 4.12

Cowardliness is not reserved for humans only, some AI values their lives more than the fight.

Where you heard this, I don't think there is anything like it in code.

I'm afraid that we must make compromise here and make AI bit better than historical. IMO using Rookies and Average AI for the most part and some Veterans and Aces in historical missions provides good approximation of WWII skill level.

Blackout is not plane dependent, it can't be more unbiased than that.

I'm trying to visualize the problems and I'm not 100% sure what I'm expecting to see. Do you have any tracks recorded that illustrate what's going on? I'd like to see... if you can point out the timecode when weird things are happening that would be even more useful.

That is good to know ...

That is good to know as well and hopefully will probably address the issues I raised with the friendly AI

I don't know about that .. I think the 1946 AI is much better overall than the original IL2 AI.. in every way..

I think the enemy AI is pretty nice.. especially since 4.10 .. it is the behavior of the friendly AI that gets me.. Heck if my AI wingman acted like the wing men of the bandit I am chasing I would be happier.. and maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that they do not both act the same. Even when I tell them what to do more often than I'd like there will be 3 or four friendlies flying around me while I have 3-5 bandits taking turns ripping me a new one at the same time..

Another good to know..

I dunno about that one either.. I don't do too many headons with ace AI .. I usually loose no matter what they are flying.


I agree 100%. This is exactly my take and what I do when I made missions ..

Thanks for the Q & A, FC!

Quote:
I think the enemy AI is pretty nice.. especially since 4.10 .. it is the behavior of the friendly AI that gets me.. Heck if my AI wingman acted like the wing men of the bandit I am chasing I would be happier.. and maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that they do not both act the same. Even when I tell them what to do more often than I'd like there will be 3 or four friendlies flying around me while I have 3-5 bandits taking turns ripping me a new one at the same time..


Hitting the nail on the head. The friendly AI are pretty much clueless compared to the opposing AI. A wingman would try to clear his lead's tail if he's in a position to do so, without waiting to be ordered to do so, and vice versa, that's the idea of flying as a pair, teamwork, supporting one another.
The enemy AI can do it, and the friendlies should be able to do so.

Stig

AI differences over the last versions
 

Well I saw a big difference in AI behaviour between 4.10 and 4.11
With 4.10 enemy AI was extremely agressive and there was little chance surviving a 4 vs 4 fighter encounter where all were set ace. Usually you were killed within seconds from a headon sniper shot, less then 5 rounds necessary. Also friendly AI were agressive and you stood little chance staying in formation when heading towards the enemy.

With 4.11 evrything seems a little to sissy. Your flight leader avoids the encounter, enemy AI lost lots of agressivity.
I added a simple fighter mission where it was immediately to be seen. Try it in 4.09, 4.10 and 4.11 and you will easyly recognize the differences.

Control surface positions...
I'm not sure how the AI is modelled but in this pic the rudder and elevator positions are at max = instant violent stall.... Not so with the AI.
These positions are held throughout the turn.... Also :)
Doing a lot of crimea quickies... The Spit AI can do the most amazing turns and not black out, then while doing a mild turn just flies into the ground.
I'm beginning to enjoy pre-modded IL2 more :)

I can think of other obvious situations where a fighter pilot would stay with his plane if it was on fire:

1) Too low to bail out. The pilot would ride the plane down and try to crash land/ditch.

2) Close enough to base/smooth ground to possibly make an emergency landing. This option has claimed a lot of real life pilots over the years, since sometimes the choice to try to make an emergency landing rather than immediately bail out is the wrong one.

3) Over water, but close enough to land to possibly bail out or crash land on dry ground. Similar to the situation above, but particularly applicable when flying over shark-infested or extremely cold waters, where falling into the water was almost certain death.

4) "Doomed hero." Pilot is mortally wounded and/or plane is in too bad a condition to get back to base, but the pilot can still complete a vital mission by sticking with the plane until the very end. Very rare, but it did happen. A slightly more common scenario is where the pilot sticks with his plane long enough that it won't crash onto a friendly populated area.

5) Stubbornness. As long as the fire isn't burning him, a pilot might try to deal with smoke or fire rather than bailing out.

Many fighters carried fire extinguishers in the cockpits, and pilots could try to blow smoke out of the cockpit by slightly opening the canopy. The wind rushing over the gap created a partial vacuum which could suck the smoke out. They could also try to extinguish fires by going into long, hard dives, shutting down the engine, or shutting off damaged fuel tanks, which sometimes worked.

I still think that Ace AI is too aggressive about taking head-on shots in meeting engagements where neither side has the advantage.

In "AI vs. AI" dogfights I've set up in the QMB, I see way too many "double kills" where Ace AI fighters take each other out during the first head-on pass.

Especially where one fighter has a big speed or maneuverability advantage over the other, the AI should try to avoid head-on shots and use their speed and/or maneuverability to set up a safer firing situation.


Another flaw seems to be that AI fighters who are superior in both speed and maneuverability prefer "boom and zoom" tactics rather than pure maneuvering, even when maneuver tactics would take the enemy out more quickly and with less risk to the attacker.

Furthermore, AI B'n'Z tactics usually don't use enough speed or altitude to get a really advantageous angle on the target. Often, AI planes will make a pass, then fly off to a distance of 2-3 kilometers before turning around and making diving attack from 20-30 degrees above, giving a human player plenty of time to try to "jam" the attack or take a head-on shot at the merge.


Finally, AI rookie or average pilots are still too prone to breaking off the fight and flying around before resuming the attack. Unless they've lost sight of their opponent, it's more common for inexperienced fighter pilots to be too aggressive rather than not aggressive enough.

An excessively aggressive rookie will burn off too much altitude and/or speed maneuvering to stay on his opponent's tail. Often, this is combined with target fixation, which leads to loss of situational awareness. Sometimes, it results in the pilot actually overshooting his target.

I don't know if IL2 models an inexperienced fighter pilot's loss of Situational Awareness when they're focusing on chasing or firing at a foe, but it would be a cool addition if it isn't already there.

I must stress that I haven't had time to try your mission probably, but I have flown it a few times in 4.11.and 4.10 on autopilot, and yes, I can see the difference. I think though that this stems from the overhaul the AI recieved in 4.11, where the AI won't always just wade into any fight, but sometimes may seek a more advantageous position before engaging or even running away.
So in general the AI in 4.11 are probably less aggressive in 4.11 than in earlier versions, but on the otherhand that probably makes them more 'human'. I consider the enemy AI much improved and more of a challenge in 4.11, but in some respects the friendly AI arn't in the same league.

I have attached a ntrk to illustrate what I (and Bearcat) have mentioned, where the friendlies don't react to bandits flying along side them and attacking the flight leader (yours truly), until I request assitance. In the track i haven't I haven't given the order to 'attack fighters' so the friendlies just follow me around in formation and then I more or less just let the enemy attack me.

Stig

AI Combat Reports - 2560AD

1) Me = (ace)Spit-IX vs AI (ace)Spit-IX (Crimea Map - 1000m)

The usual being bounced, turn into attack.
Spit does extraordinary rudder/elevator rolls to get a burst on me - I avoid it with an inward snap roll. The Spit stays with with me and we match each other turn for turn without either getting a bead on the other. The AI then flies into the beach during a turn...???.
I was nowhere near blacking out and the AI was turning at the same speed/rate - Huh!
This was repeated 3x - all results similar

2)Me = (ace)FW190A9 vs AI (ace)FW190A9 (Crimea Map - 1000m)
The usual being bounced, turn into attack.
AI FW doesn't even match the spit with first attacking move. With superior roll rate and better control it makes no attempt to do what the Spit did. After the first pass it makes no attempt to follow me, stay close like the spit.
In the same plane I was onto the AI FW in less than 270 degrees and I just followed it (glued myself to it's rear end) without shooting until it also flew itself into the ground for no apparent reason. It did purely defensive moves with no matching aggressiveness like the spit.
This was repeated 3x - all results similar

The disparity is as wide as a canyon here.. or maybe the limitation is the human imagination (most likely suspect) ;)
I'm really tired of the AI flying into the ground, sea or any lump of dirt that is 'in the sky' !!

I have a proposal for TD with regard to the AI.

Why don't you guys ask everyone whose had medium to extensive experience in any particular a/c to write a report(or multiple reports) on their tactics used in certain scenarios, online or offline.

Filter the basic/important aspects and incorporate these ideas into the AI programming.

Whaddya say.. hey!!
:grin:

Edt: Taking this further.. how about seperate aircraft enthusiasts working on their fav aircraft - Pits, FMs, DMs... etc - team work type thingy.
From there it goes for production testing, then final acceptance into the game.. I'm sure there are a gazillion people ready for many teams of production - TD will be the umbrella controlling body ?? :)

Edt2: I actually like this idea.. it has BIG ideas and results.. imagine a 'world perfect flight sim'.. freak me out somewhat!!

"Quote:

I also felt that the weight limit for AI aces seemed to be 50%, under this why no maneuverability gains?

Where you heard this, I don't think there is anything like it in code."


Do you mean there is no difference in AI ace agility whatever fuel load you select for AI?


It could be nice to see AI ace start spiraling when it sees player still closing (or firing) after the zoom climb, that instead of being easily shot down while hanging on its prop.

AI don't know what is your idea about their behavior, you have to tell them what you want. Things you might find logical might not be logical or desired for someone else. I guarantee you that for every stupid thing AI do in game I can find you equivalent stupidity done by humans in WWII.

And it's not any different in 4.05 for example which is not done by DT. One must ask himself why was that not a problem before for you and now it's a game-breaker.:rolleyes:

This is not modeled directly but there is a mechanism in the game which results in AI behave in a way you propose.

You can't go into details regarding tactics or anything else in 300 planes sim. If this is a "study" sim with only couple of planes than yes, than you can make code for every possible matchup, but not in Il2.

Nobody stops them to do that but you would be surprised how few such enthusiast actually exist.


Obviously, I don't understand what you are saying. I thought that you are saying that Aces AI have some artificial weight limit. AFAIK that's not the case, changes in weight should affect them same as humans.

I'm not too happy with AI's B'n'Z and Energy fighting but we can't do all at once. As far as air AI is concerned ratio between Oleg's and DT code in game is something like 60:40 so we have almost doubled the AI code in just a few patches. Considering that we are comparing the team that was payed to work full time on the game with the team that is doing voluntarily job in the free time it is easy to see that DT pays lot more attention to AI than it was the case in the past but we can't do miracles.

hey AI getting better and better TY FC99 and TD
 

haha my remarks were absolutely not criticism :) : just take them as simple requests from (greedy/impatient?) someone who's actually enjoying the new AI coding very much. I'm well aware of AI improvements in the last patches and am pleasantly surprised and very grateful... Team Daidalos AI is actually beginning to have some nerves and skills, and to me this is already like a miracle!

Don't worry, whatever the results (and they are very good so far, and promising) in all fairness, i think everyone here knows we have you and TD to thank for it.

Please professor go on making the "creature" alive:twisted:!

[QUOTE=FC99;468490]AI don't know what is your idea about their behavior, you have to tell them what you want. Things you might find logical might not be logical or desired for someone else. I guarantee you that for every stupid thing AI do in game I can find you equivalent stupidity done by humans in WWII.


Giving orders to your wingman / flight(s) under your command in a given situation during a mission is one thing, but there are other things that are basic, and a wingman who didn't know what to do if a bandit jumps on his leads tail in WWII would have been the exception, not the rule.

If a RL pilot checked six and saw a bandit in between him and his wingman, I reckon, providing they both got back to base, that the wingman would be meekly washing his (the lead's) underpants.

Sure pilots did stupid things and made mistakes, especially in the heat of combat, and AI making wrong choices, making a run for it instead of a fight, and so on is as it should be, that's realistic. However, an AI wingman that clears his lead's his tail without being ordered to do so, is also more realistic than one that doesn't.

/Stig

I agree. If you're a wingman, your standing orders are to keep enemy planes from attacking your lead.

A wingman who doesn't do that unless you specifically tell him to do so isn't much of a wingman. Maybe for Rookie AI, but certainly Average or better wingmen should move aggressively to drive off enemy planes threatening his lead - WITHOUT BEING COMMANDED TO DO SO.

The only exception would be if the wingman has been forced to take evasive action himself and/or has lost Situational Awareness as to where his lead is.

If the AI wingman doesn't do this automatically, then there should be some way of making it do so, by creating "standing orders" for AI.


Actually, the ability for mission builders and/or players to "program" the AI using standing orders would be an incredibly cool addition to the game, and would be a very simple way to deal with a whole host of tactical situations that would otherwise drive an AI programmer nuts.

I could see it working sort of like a macro or script, where the player/mission builder could order certain units to do things like hold a certain course or altitude relative to another plane, fire/not fire at certain targets, avoid/attack certain planes or classes of planes, etc. Variants of this programming could be used to do things like make fighters stay within a certain distance of the bombers they're escorting, make bombers divert to a secondary target if clouds cover the primary target, fighters only drop drop tanks if they encounter fighters, or have planes in your flight trail enemy planes back to their base.

OK, so desired behavior is to set wingman into defend leader mode when they notice the enemy with the exception of Rookies which will blindly follow the leader unless told otherwise?

What about second section, what should be default behavior of No 3 in flight(No 4 will provide cover for him)


We are in a process of enhancing comms and some of the things you want will be available to player that way.


Everything that involves messing with the mission file is sensitive topic because of backward compatibility. Once you put something into mission file you are stuck with it so all eventual additions require careful evaluation. Hard part here is designing robust and flexible scheme for adding various parameters but we are working on it. Main task for 4.13 will be triggers and that will cover lot of your wishes.

[QUOTE=Stig1207;468559]With Greatest Respect To TD: +1 on Stig's idea; there is often no time to think and give orders in combat - people have to know how to act in an unexpected situation in order for a unit to be effective as a team. I know that this concept of teamwork was accepted by the Americans, Germans and British.

I agree Ai wingman needs to be improved but....
 

Which is one of the very most difficult task to master, it is very rare to see it well performed by human players playing online BTW. Rarely have i seen it performed correctly...But that's just my limited experience of the game you may say.

The saving wingman, well that works especially in theory.

As wingman you must have a superior SA, a good intelligence of the dynamic of a fight, and you have to have a good aim too, qualities that are never ever found by less skilled fighter pilots, not to talk about the will to protect that must be stronger than the greed and the call of glory...

Right, though you are actually describing an expert pilot as wingman, certainly not an average one. That's maybe the other ace of the squad and his wingman you are talking about in your post, perhaps not the direct wingman. Perhaps more than by wingman, cover should be provided by the 2nd (or other) element (ZVENO, Red Flight, Rotte), but anyway they should not be able to obey orders if engaged, and they should chose their life by disengaging over saving the leader in case of encountering superior enemy.

Only a very small elite of human pilots are "much of a wingman", perhaps your standards are set too high. Wingman, it is not easy job you can comply just by obeying orders...Wingman able to give protection = very high skill level! The only diffference with aces (apart from kill ratio obviously) is a different kind of aggressiveness, less "primal" i would say.

Yes, but one should note that these exceptions come in particular cases: especially if the leader did not plan the attack correctly, and did not spot the danger (call it again human pilot mistake) or if the flight is attacked by surprise, in which case there would not be much to wait from the unlucky wingman...If the leader does something really too dangerous i doubt the wingman will risk his life to save the greedy leader. Even in the real world i'm sure they would rather save their own life instead. This should be taken into consideration too when programming AI. It would be strange to have an AI just to sacrifice it when things go wrong to allow a last card to be played. This just would not be realistic at all...On the contrary, good planning of the attack, waiting to see and chosing not to engage should be somehow rewarded instead.

I can't see why Ai should automatically do something as difficult as finding the lost leader in the middle of a fight when it is only the very best human fighter pilots that are able to do so in real life and in game (no icons, close cockpits of course). Often the flight is scattered by the attackers : this is actually why the surprise attack is the best.

When surprised and scattered there's not much you can do but try to save your life if your ac performance allows it. Otherwise i can not see why human player would not be shot down. It happened all the time during WW2 even to the very best.

These are all great ideas but to me they should only work if the wingman AI is veteran or ace, and only when the flight has the initiative of the attack with a great margin to exploit or when the flight controls the situation. If suprise attacked or against superior enemy AI "protection" skills should be decreased drastically, even to a lower point that what we have now, if possible (ie finding oneself alone against a whole enemy squadron).

[QUOTE=Stig1207;468559]With all respect, I think the problem is not here: in fact the wingman should be shot at/down first, he should be asking for his leader's help in the first place, not the contrary :) . You would never see a pilot trying to kill a leader by placing his fighter between the target and his wingman: this is what should be changed IMHO.

But again, if a wingman is shot at, then perhaps the leader did a mistake by not seeing the one "that will kill you friend".

Even a rookie, seeing a bandit on his leaders tail, would know he has try to help if he can, or at least warn his leader of the danger.

A major part of a fighter pilots duties is shooting down enemy aircraft, so why wouldn't No 3 try to shoot down the bandit that's attacking the flight leader if he's in a position to do so?

RegRag:


I agree, but I have seen No 3 of my flight doing the same thing, flying past the wingman to attack the leader, but the difference is that the bandit wingman opens fire and No 3 breaks off, screaming for help:grin:

Also, regarding your post 230. Some may be better than others at flying wing, and even an AI wingman should not be expected to risk his 'life' trying to save his leader. But the issue here is that the AI wingman doesn't react at all to the attack on his (player) flight leader unless he is commanded to so. And that is even if the attacking bandit is flying right beside him or maybe even in his gunsight, and this is whether the wingman is a rookie or an ace, there's no difference.
It should be obvious for an AI wingman what's happening and also fairly obvious what he needs to do, but how well he does is of cause another matter.

/Stig

Well, I few a few missions 4.11.1 today again (crappy cold weather outside, thus...). Some some AI moves that maybe should looked into are:

- fighters escorts that engage, then disengage and fly away, higher and higher. Then turn back in a very long dive at high speed or disengage completely and move on to their next waypoint.
- Jabo's that attack and make a pass at their target, then slightly zoom up again and want to make a hard left or right bank and steeply downwards for a second pass. This second move brings them very close to the ground and they sometimes crash.

Rgs,
FP

edit: using 4.11.1 and latest hsfx .16.

Bombers
 

Three things That I would like fixed. AI bombers don't maintain level on bomb run. They seem to make either a shallow dive or shallow climb, level out and then drop bombs. Also jettisoning their bomb load when attacked is unrealistic. That would have been a court martial offense, at least. At the moment if I make a bomber attack mission in FMB I can cause most of the bombers to dro their bombs before they get to the target just by attacking them myself, or by being attacked by the AI fighters.
The last thing is probably just my opinion, but I think it unrealistic that the AI crews fly happily along in an aircraft that is streaming flame. In reality, if it burns, you bale!

Remove radar
 

I'd like the radar removed from the enemy AI planes ;)! Often, when Í'm way out of visibility range, they ignore other planes from my side and start chasing my plane all the way to my home airfield.
I would like to have a fair chance of getting home savely if I ran out of ammo/fuel or if my plane is damaged.

Yes but I would be happy if my wingman/flight just attacked the plane chasing me when I ask for cover or I ask for help from anyone.... I will have one plane in front of me and 3 trying to nail me while the rest of my flight is just flying in formation with me and I ask for help and more often than not the other 3 planes in my flight will either keep flying around or attack the plane in front of me leaving the one(s) attacking me alone to do their business. I know I have beating this horse but it is always more frustrating when it is fresher in my mind.. and I just finished a QM. Even if the plane that warned me attacked the plane it was warning me about it would be a good thing. It drives me nuts because I know pretty much that shortly after I hear "Roger I got you covered.." I'm a goner. I can tell them to attack.. ask for help.. Yet with the enemy AI when I attack one plane the whole flight goes after me. I don't want miracles. I just want them to do something and the frustrating thing is that sometimes they do quite well but they are not as frequent as I would like to see.

I just thought of something.. would it be possible to add a check 6/check MY 6 command in the "views" menu? Sometimes when I try to use the padlock so that I can tell the AI "attack my target" which works more often than not they will do it .. but far too often the target I padlock is the one in front of me, probably because he is closer instead of the one behind me. Perhaps if we had a specific "Padlock Enemy 6" command that was also server side settable like some of the other views that would enable us to padlock the enemy behind us first and then tell the AI "attack my target" and they would.. that might work. As it is now telling either my wingman or my flight "cover me" or "anyone help me" is 8 times out of 10 a waste of time because they still more often than not just fly right by the bandits and that is just so so frustrating. The enemy AI is great... but the friendly AI makes offline flying almost no fun at all...

I know that eventually you guys will sort this out.. I have higher hopes for IL2 than any oter sim that I fly and it is primarily because of TD .. but the wait is a bummer.

This prompted me to wonder.. When we get that warning as the leader does it come from our wingman? If so can a routine be written to have him attack the plane he sees? Because of the nature of the friendly AI I usually set them all t Ace for all the good it does. One thing I have noticed is that when I try to protect my flight it seems I get better help but it's spotty.

If you are talking about internal Padlock, be aware that the target nearest the center of your view will be padlocked first. The proximity of targets in relationship to your plane (in terms of distance) has no factor. So, if you wish to padlock a plane on your 6, the best way is to look over your shoulder and then use the Padlock command.

Also, don't forget that you have two powerful commands for occasions when there are multiple targets in your view ---> 'Padlock Next' & 'Padlock Previous'. These will scroll through viable targets within your pilot's view.

If you are lucky enough to have enough buttons (I have a CH HOTAS), these two commands are a must, along with your main Padlock commands.

*In reference to the first part of my post, I actually have macro commands (so I only need to press one button) that will have my pilot look back over his left/right shoulder and automatically padlock an enemy plane within view. If there are no enemy planes in view behind me, the pilot's view will automatically return to the forward position. Little 'tricks' like this are invaluable to players like me who don't use TrackIR but still want a dynamic range of view options.

Aviar

Stupid, Stupid ,wingman
 

I think you are risking making the game too easy. Sometimes I laugh at the wingman. "who's side is he on?!" Personally, if the AI always attacked and removed threats to my 6o'clock, I might become bored and leave the game. I don't see the point. I just like trying to outfly my attacker. What I suggest is that we are able to jump to another plane if we are shot down. That would be fun, or perhaps even jump to the wingman's aircraft while our original aircraft becomes AI controlled. Then you could personally attack or chase off the attacker, and then resume control of your original aircraft. A bit like co-op play, I guess. Comments?

Running for Home
 

What I do is this: Fly as fast as I can. Maintain trim. Every time the engine over heat warning goes out I close the Radiator until it gets hot again. Fly very low and hug the contours of the ground and if you make it to home base:- Make sure you have set up a couple of light flack guns , 50 cal, 20mm or 25mm to defend your home airstrip. Draw the chasing plane into them. I have done this when out of ammo and been successful. It really is more fun than just flying home watching the scenery.

I totally disagree.. How would having your wingman attack one of the 1,2,3 or sometimes 4 planes attacking you at once make it easier? You still have to down the bandit you are chasing because if you don't .. he will turn the tables on you and go on the offensive .. even inmost cases if he is damaged so I don't see that making things easier at all and you will still have another plane on you... I cannot tell you how many times I get caught in a 3 or 4 way crossfire while the other members of my flight are literally just flying around.. Sometimes as it has been said by others the plane shooting me will be between my wingman and me.. which just should not be period. Often the wingman will not respond until I am down or am going down with a blown off wing.. then he goes on the offensive. That should not be if the bandit is between he and I. As I said .. there have been times when the friendlies have been spot on.. but more often than not hat is not the case. But enough of that.. I am sure TD knows what the deal is (as far as the problem.. the solution may be more elusive) so I am getting off this soapbox for now.. Hopefully in the next patch .. which also hopefully will not be too much longer, or shortly thereafter some of this will be addressed.

That's usually enough to shake off pesky attackers. Not long ago I was trying to get back to base in a badly shot-up machine, with three AI on my tail. After a few twists and turns they all crashed, one by one. Not very realistic but, as fan boys used to say, "you can't model everything" :)

Yes that works sometimes.. Other times I have had them chase me all the way back to base.. but that I can live with.. Like I said.. enemy AI is not my issue.. I think they are fine.. much MUCH im,proved.. they don't do that climb to the sun maneuver ... they actually stall out if trying to turn too sharply.. the enemy AI is FANTASTIC compared to what it was in 4.0 .. I am confident that TD will address this or do their best to.. So far I have not been let down by any update we have had and I realize that these guys have real lives and day jobs and that this is largely a labor of love and I appreciate it like I know most of the folks who come here do.....

Recently I have been playing a campaign (offline) in the Bf110 G2 over the Kuban map and have found that the aircraft exhibit different behaiviours dependant on loadout. Flying as second man in the second element of the formation, if the loadout is the Bk3.7 gunpod and the mission task is ground attack, the second element will take up the "escort pattern" over the first flight. When enemy fighters are encountered the whole formation go haring after the fighters (despite the fact that we are escorted by four Bf109,s). After this engagement the survivors proceed to target but the second element will not attack the target. If we are loaded with bombs the second element flys alongside the first and when encountering fighters simply leaves the 109,s to go after the soviet fighters, whilst proceding to target to make the attack.
Is there some way to ensure that if the mission task is ground attack the members of your group will stick to the mision objective?

At the moment I am building a mission with Ju-87B2 and Swordfish in it, both aren't carrying bombs. To my surprise the Swordfish are attacking the Stukas. I tested the mission with other ground attack plane types and all are showing the same behaviour, except the Ju-87B2, which acts like a normal bomber.

So my questions is, is there a way to stop the AI of ground attack aircraft from attacking other bombers? If not, would it be possible to add an option in FMB that can stop the AI of a flight group from engaging other planes?

I made some changes in that regard, can you post your problematic mission so I can test if the problem is fixed.

I'm aware of that but I don't know what is the exact cause of that, I'll check it when I find time.

1. Not a priority.
2. Are you talking about bombers or fighters with bombs?
3. I'll check that, they should bail when on fire.

AI doesn't target player specifically but I see how it could happen that they "all" go after you. There will be some changes in 4.12.

In 4.11 if you want your AI to be aggressive you have to issue "Attack" command first. So when you see enemy order "Attack" to wingmen and follow it with "CoverMe", that way Wingman will behave same as enemy AI. Another possible "problem" is how your Wingman assess the danger. That depend on skill and Rookies will let the enemy in your tail while Aces will be lot more aggressive. Anyway, some changes have been made for 4.12 already and in addition there will be more Orders options in Comms menu.

Correct, sometimes AI behavior depend on loadout. If two flights are in the mission and second have first one as a target than the second one will behave as escort if it doesn't have bombs or rockets. In case that second flight have offensive weapons than it will act as a flight in formation with the first one.

Not really. I must add new parameter for behavior enforcement. Best you can do now is to be very creative in mission design.

Planes that are categorized as Attack planes in the game will attack other non-fighter planes unless they are carrying offensive weapons.

It's possible to add new option. When? I don't know.

Not only jabos drop bombs when attacked. I play a QMB mission now to practice shooting (Crimea, low altitude, my advantage, 4 Il-2m3s + 3 Il-2s 3rd series and me in a Bf 109G-6) and every time I am next to the Ilyushins, they dump their bombs. IMO, they should do it when they're badly shot, unless they are already flying coffins (my attacks usually end up with a tailless Il-2 spinning to the ground after a single very short burst from a 20-50m distance, just like the experts hunted 8)). So it isn't just fighters' case, it's a common problem, especially in the eastern front.

I don't know if this has been asked but do the AI black out? If so how come I will be going in a dive to follow an AI.. we are not closing.. in fact sometimes he is pulling away... he turns .. I turn.. I black out... he zooms up .. gets on my 6 and nails me.. Do they black out?

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who minds it. AI certainly don't black out, which gives them unrealistic advantage.

Thanks God I'm not the only one who is annoyed by this. A fix of that issue would be awesome!

Yeah, thats been bugging me since I got into this sim.
And all over the versions, carburator fed enemy planes can dip and dive like a boss, dont shred to pieces in long high speed dives and climb like a pro.

Dont mess with a Hurry or a Mosca when you only have a lousy Bf109E

Dont try to follow your filghtleader in an attack

I'm not sure but I think they do... I convinced one to pull a tighter turn then me and suddenly he nosed downwards for several seconds before recovering. That was yesterday and I noted it as really interesting behaviour. But I think an AI programmer from TD would need to confirm.

I think the most common thing that happens both against the AI and against other humans is we get placed in a situation where we think we're pulling the same turn but, in an effort to lead the target, we're actually pulling a tighter turn and more G forces. In a high speed dive a few fractions tighter than your opponent and you could be in full blackout while he could be starting to blackout but still in control. It's just a matter of physics at that point :)

Excellent news.. I missed this before my last post.. FC.. those were some interesting tidbits about how to control the AI better.. are there any more things like that that might be helpful in getting us to better control the AI?

I will say one thing that really makes controlling the AI an entirely different ball game... that is VAC (Voice Activated Command). For those that are not familiar with it it is a program created by a community member named Shift_E and it has been out for quite a while.. I discovered it 6 years ago and after fiddling with it for a while I went and bought it. It takes a little work to get it set up right initially .. just a little.. and some people use it to control things like mirrors etc.. or more complicated sims like A-10 but for me where it really really shined was in controlling the AI. It is not free.. you can DL the trial but the cost is small.. I think I paid $15 at the time to unlock it. Now it is $18 but it is a great program and worth the $$. You can use it for other stuff as well. Unlike Voice Buddy which costs $40 last time I checked VAC is a decent price and the support can't be beat. My comms are the RCTRL .. and on my X-52 I have that button programmed on my throttle so that when I need to talk in TS I just press a button on my throttle.. for VAC I used RALT and if you take the time to program it right you can really enhance this whole simming thing as far as AI control is concerned.. and since there are more options coming it may even be more practical. Initially with my profile I had it set just for opening comms and then saying numbers to get where I wanted to be but eventually I put phrases to keystrokes.. For instance.. I had "two cover me" set as TAB+1+1 .. TAB+7 (anyone help me) could be activated by saying "help, I need help, I need help dammit,somebody get this guy off of me and NOW" .. Attack enemy fighters was "go get em boys, attack fighters and bandits! nail em". I tried to set it up so that it was almost like talking to a person but keeping it simple (by just using one phrase to open comms and 0-9) was just as doable and less work.. Unfortunately I lost all that after committing the cardinal sim of the PC simmer.. not backing up .. in a crash. I recently got my access key back (like I said the support can't be beat.. I bought VAC about 5 years ago and he still supports it.. ;)) and now I am trying to rebuild my profile so I can use it to command the AI but VAC does for AI commands what TIR does for viewing.. it makes it much more intuitive and you can concentrate more on flying than typing or pressing buttons..

Could you possibly stop AI from engaging enemy aircraft with dead engine?
Last night I flew with five AI Zeros a scramble mission against a bunch of SBD's escorted by some P-40s. On the first pass I hit a P-40 and its engine froze. It was no longer a threat, so I looked for another target. A moment later I noticed that the remaining five Zeros were all busy taking pot shots at the P-40 with dead engine! Since they're no good at flying low and slow, two of them crashed. Anyway, they were supposed to defend their own base, engage the bombers, and not to waste ammunition on a plane which was about to ditch. In such situations they're useless (I was the lowest rank, so I couldn't give them any orders). Of course I got no credit for that P-40 because some AI vulture managed to put a bullet or two into it just before it crashed.

One could argue that this is working as designed... human players online certainly do this and it's not impossible to imagine pilots, caught up in the heat of battle, would also do the very same thing and make the same mistakes.

It is a bit odd as the AI will sometimes break off from a stricken plane but if it's under control, even without an engine, they will continue to attack it anyways.

It seems like they do. I've had countless AI fly into the ground (flying over a flat plain) , so much so it starts to get annoying.
BUT - the problem seems that the AI can really do these incredible acrobatic feats and not black out, yet on some gentle turns, go making big holes in the ground.

It seems the AI has been programmed in reverse where I actually see the AI a/c literally rotating along the wing axis at high speed (which is a recipe for instant black out, besides losing a wing).. yet all is OK ? ;)
It is possible that the AI are not programmed with the same FM as the player. From watching tracks, they really do some impossible physics which can only be explained by punching in numbers into the AI's so called FM.

Maybe a good test would be to place a G-Meter output on the screen for each aircraft - this would shake the hornets nest... :)

You and your 'explanations'... :rolleyes: Try to think in terms of real, wartime pilots defending their base, tearing through a formation of bombers just to scatter them and make them jettison bombs (that's what they should and would do), not a bunch of online jockeys desperately trying to score points.

Well, think of it this way.

A fighter escort will give an attacker very little chance of a second bomber attack, and this seemed the case over England as well as France/Germany.
The attacking fighter is now faced with another fighter, which he has to destroy in order to carry on. If he lets the escorting fighter get away, it'll be back the next day... so destroy it (and pilot) now, by any means possible. with attrition the fighters, or pilot abilty next time will be lower, then one would be free to hammer the bombers - This I would say is the reality.

Me and my explanations? Ohhhkay. Not sure where I've offended but, sorry? I'm just asking to think about this and offer an alternative perspective.

Humans are humans no matter what. So online jockeys aren't really all that different from other humans. No fear of death but still the same propensity towards target fixation.

Rather than this being a bug it can be considerd a feature. You're not wrong in asking for some changes to this behavior. Certrainly some pilots would be more disciplined. So, instead of a grand change, how about building in some variability? Rookie pilots could have a higher chance of becoming target fixated and firing on aircraft that are already stricken. Ace pilots would have far less of a chance or no chance at all depending on the programming. Lots of options.

Now, that's classic :) I've been hearing it for some ten years, initially from Oleg himself, then from his devoted followers, for some reason called 'fan boys', as you might remember. Almost every bug can be 'considered a feature' with a bit of imagination. Why then fix them and make this sim better? Isn't it easier to imagine and 'explain'?

Dude, I honestly have no idea where the angry attitude is coming from. Let me make it clear then. What you suggest doesn't automatically make for a better experice with the A.I. Perhaps one thing is gained but at the loss of another behavior which is not inherently wrong IMHO. Target fixation did happen.

So, no idea what the problem is here, but I think there's a great opportunity to create something interesting with something that the AI already does.

Agree with Ice, no reason not to keep this discussion civil.

That being said, I also think that Lagarto has a good case in all calling this AI behavior a bug. After all, it's not one AI pilot becoming target fixated, it's the whole flight. While it's reasonable that the AI make mistakes, after all that 's only human:grin:, but if the silly byggers all make the same mistakes all the time they shouldn't be flying high-powered, heavily armed aircraft.

/Stig

Where the angry attitude is coming from? For years and years anyone reporting a bug was immediately attacked by a bunch of fans blindly infatuated with this game. Their 'noble' efforts to 'defend' the game were actually counterproductive because they slowed down its development. You can't fix or improve anything if you think everything is just perfect.

Absolutely right Stig. I even suggested that some sort of update to how it works so that some AI do become fixated while others are smarter or more disciplined. The AI could roll some kind of percentage probability for being fixated depending on skill level.

It's insane that Ace AI would do the same as a rookie.

They don't have classic blackout, they have limited amount of G's they can pull instead. That works well enough in most situations. I logged their G's during fights on couple occasions and they were within reasonable margins. In general, I have lot more problems to make AI do the things I can do than to limit them in what they can do.

They are not exceeding dive limits so there is no reason for them to lose aircraft's parts.

True in most situations. Most players believe that they are good while in reality not more than 5% of the players knows what they are doing.

As a flight Leader you will be able to send commands to Wingman, Second Section and whole flight. Assigning target aircraft for them should work better than now. You will be able to Abort mission from any position in flight. You will be able to call contacts from any position in flight too, of course, you will not be able to order attacks if you are not the Leader.

VAC type of control is the best solution but you still need solid and practical "silent" system because not everybody is in position to use voice during playing.

In theory they should not attack planes that are not capable of combat but I guess that there is a loophole somewhere.

If they are supposed to attack specific target that have to be set in mission. Without that they will attack first target of appropriate type. I'll try to add target type preference to FMB in 4.13, it's to late to do it for 4.12.

This is entirely up to you then. I don't feel that I jumped on you but I did ask for you to think about the request. I even agreed with you that a change could be made but with a little more subtlety. Yet, you've continued to be hostile. I'll take it in stride.

I'm going to keep on challenging and making my own suggestions but please do not mistake it for any attitude on my part. This should and can be a civil discussion where an idea is formed, challenged, and forged into something constructive.

Type preference sounds interesting. Would they be waypoint controllable or hard coded? Both? Not a fully formed idea in my head but I'm curious.

I was thinking about WP target preference.

I suggest by default, 2nd pair covers lead's pair from a few hundred meters away (higher alt better).

If lead's pair engaged by any forward firing aircraft (not by rear gunners), 2nd pair engages this aircraft and attacks it until it goes down or flees more than 5km from lead's pair, then goes back to "cover lead's pair" mode. Lead can recall 2nd pair back via "cover me" command any time.


If intruscted to attack, 2nd pair goes after own target.

Yes... and (I know I know.. I have beaten this drum nearly to death) when it is your flight that is abandoning you to chase down that wounded/dieing bandit it is particularly frustrating. I look forward to 4.12 ad whatever AI updates are coming..

It's developers who are deciding what get fixed and what not. There is no reason to get angry just because somebody have different opinion than you. What you consider a bug might be a feature for someone else and I never saw AI in this game doing something that humans don't do too.

In case of chasing planes with dead engine that will be fixed to some extent in 4.12. I will not completely remove the possibility for AI to attack harmless planes.

FC99, it's not a different opinion but patronizing attitude of some here that angers me. When you say, this is a bug, that is a feature, I believe you, you know these things inside out. Some people don't. They just want to sound smart, as if they were some self-proclaimed mouthpiece of the DT. Anyway, thank you for looking into the 'dead engine issue'.

I'm sorry if you think I sound patronizing. That's not the idea. The idea is to discuss whatever ideas people come up with (mine included). No one is an island.

I'm glad that FC99 is looking into it. Some great work has already been done on the AI... I'm sure it'll be even better in 4.12.

FC99: Have you looked into at all the behavior of aircraft that should either be falling into escort formation OR into flight formation?

I have no problem with bombers getting into a flight formation (using the select option on waypoints) but with fighters it seems hit and miss. Sometimes they will get into escort and fly above (and often fall behind) and sometimes they will line up in a flight formation and do what they should be doing.

The behavior has definitely changed over the years. Sometimes without rhyme or reason from my perspective. Any tips or thoughts?

Lagarto, I think you're barking up the wrong tree. And as FC99 points out, for no reason. One users statement is not going to be ignored just because another user adds a couple of cents.

I'm not sure that you can get fighters into formation unless they carry bombs or rockets. If they are clean they will get into "Escort" mode.

AFAICS that part of the code was same in 4.02 too so if things were different in the past that must be long ago.

I could have sworn that they would fall into formation sometimes instead of escort. But either that's my memory or it was very early on. Perhaps AEP version 2.0 days... Any chance we may be able to control that in the future? I realize that's just one more thing :)

Here's another example of odd behaviour by AI. I've just flown a DGen mission, in which my squadron was supposed to escort transport planes on a transfer flight to a new airfield. It was a fairly short hop, some 10 minutes flying time, all the escorts still full of fuel and ammo. As it happened, we got intercepted over the new airfield. All the friendly a/c were by that time in landing circuit - and they continued to circle and land, just as the interceptors kept on shooting them down. No defensive action whatsoever, just the usual, cool talking to the control tower. Fighting all alone, I tried to call for help. Nothing. I requested assistance from the ground, only to learn that friendly fighters were far away - while they were buzzing all around me.
The problem is - once the AI enter circuit, they won't fight any more.
I know that someone else may call it a feature. The AI dudes could have a bad day, temporary blindness, air sickness, suicidal thoughts, hangover or they were just plain dumb. But maybe, just maybe, it's a bug and need fixing?

I can confirm this, same thing happened to me today in a DGen mission.

Another thing which upsets me: If your squad is sent on a ground-attack mission, maybe to an enemy airfield, AI will often take aim on some AA gun or whatever, then disengage before firing and fly away some 10km, leaving me the only one who is attacking the airfield and the AA guns having their fun with me alone...

Awaiting badly need supplies at our advanced field, we had 4 JU52s arrived at the same time as the Russki's. We downed all attackers, and afterwards I thought I'd fly in formation with the transports to boost their morale. Sending the rest of the flight back to base, which was a few yards away - they promptly disappeared into the distance ????

Ignoring them I got into circuit behind the last transport. You could imagine my dismay as I watched each one of them follow the leader into a small hillock a kilometre down the landing path.

Fly the mission again - Not a F.. you must be nuts... Delete campaign. :)

I can confirm the observations from Lagarto and Mundschenk.

I hope you guys are aware that this is like v1.0 behavior, not a new bug with v4.11.

Yes, we are perfectly aware that it's an old bug. The 4.11 was released almost a year ago, so why don't we discuss AI debugging in general?

Indeed. Once the AI enter into the landing circuit they stay there. I created a mission a while back where you attacked an airfield and the aircraft were landing... I fully expected them to break the landing pattern and go after me but it was a turkey shoot instead.

For whatever reason, they were programmed to ignore everything while on landing pattern. It could use improvement. No question about it...

That is definitely true. This stretches waaaay back :)

I already addressed this so fix is ready for 4.12. But while we are at it what would be desired AI behavior in this situation. Currently, I have them stay in landing pattern unless they are directly attacked.

The escorts should defend their charges, not only themselves.

Very cool FC99. Raises a question: Does only the attacked plane take defensive action or does the wingman/pair begin to engage? Assuming already in the pattern for landing.

In the context of carriers being the home airfield, an example from real life.

Battle of Midway, 6th June 1942. From the Action Report by the Commander of Yorktown.

In my opinion, if one plane flying in the landing circuit is attacked, or even better shortly before it is attacked, all fighters in the circuit should stop circling and engage the attackers. Maybe except those who are already preparing to land.

Gives me another idea: could it be possible to issue a radio command to the own AA protection of the airfield to prevent them from firing? I can't count the times I was shot down by friendly AA guns while closely chasing a fighter over my own airfield... :evil:

It's probably too late for 4.12, but for future patches, AI planes shouldn't enter the landing pattern if there's an enemy plane within sight, unless they have no other option other than landing - low on fuel, badly damaged, have wounded crew aboard or dangerous weather conditions closing in.

Just leaving the landing pattern when directly attacked leaves planes at too much of a tactical disadvantage as enemies maneuver into attack position - dispersed formations, low altitude, low speeds and predictable behavior.

In the future:

Escorts should respond aggressively to drive enemies away from airfields, not just protect the planes they are escorting. They should immediately go into attack formations when enemy planes are sighted.

Veteran escorts should use intelligent tactics to engage the enemy - for example, not just attacking piecemeal from below but getting above the enemy and attacking as a unit.

In the presence of enemy planes, bombers should form (or reform) flight- or squadron-sized defensive formations and loosely orbit their airfield at altitude if there is no other place to land, or if there are escorts to drive the enemy away. Otherwise, they should divert to a suitable friendly airfield where there are no enemy planes present.

Transport and auxiliary planes should always flee - possibly orbiting well away from the airfield - or divert to another airfield if there are any enemy planes in the area.

Two exceptions to the above:

1) Mission builders should have the ability to control - or override - landing behavior. That allows for "ambush" scenarios or situations where a particular plane must land, or to allow planes to divert to a specific airfield. It could also set up situations where one section of planes lands while another section engages the enemy.

Mission builders should also be able to set distances at which landing planes begin to react to enemies - both height and ground distance. They should also be able to set triggers so that landing planes react in different ways to different types of planes.

That way planes might still land normally if there is just a single enemy recce plane at high-altitude over their base, but in another way if there is a formation of enemy bombers coming in.

2) If there is radar in the game, ground control/radar ops could give orders to formations to behave in a certain way. For example, even if a formation can't see incoming enemy, ground control could still have them divert/resume defensive formation/attack.

Planes set to low fuel (EG 2% or so) should show the "land under any circumstances" behaviour. So Pursuivants demands could be archieved and simultanuously they dont loiter around until crash when you wait near the runway to start your Mission. I tried this on several occasions at the start of a mission, but you need a large airfield to force land AI planes. Otherwise they crash when at least ran out fuel.

Hmmm

Im sure Im amongst many mission builders that over the years have had missions ruined by changes made to ai behaviour.

would it not be possible to make the changes selectable rather than global to keep the mission builders intentions?

thanks :)

I am not sure if it was mentioned, but when I create a quick mission (for example: two planes vs two) and when my group defeat the enemy group, my AI friend has got a strange behaviour. Instead of getting back home with me, the 'AI friend' seems to consider me as his enemy (AI is getting away from me doing some strange aerobatic maneuvers). But I have never noticed the friend AI shooting me, just getting away. Greetings

I'll take a guess as to what is happening to you. If YOU are the lead in a 2-plane flight and YOU try and follow your wingman, it will look like he wants to get away from you. In fact, he DOES want to get away from you so he can get behind you (as he was programmed).

I'm sure that is what you are experiencing. Otherwise, I have never seen what you have described.

Aviar

Thank you for the answer. You might be right and thank's for the explanation!:grin:

Sounds sensible, but don't count on it. Back then pilots didn't have comms with AA guns. For a fighter pilot to issue an order to ground AA guns batteries when and who they should fire at isn't terribly realistic, to say the least. However, it would be nice to see the AAA take things a bit easy when a friendly aircraft is within very close proximity to the guy they were shooting at.

Of course, like everything else, a lot depended on the individual gun crew's skill and experience levels, and they just might keep right on firing anyways, or even mistake you as an enemy aircraft and shoot at you until someone realizes the mistake and stops...

Happened a lot. :grin:

A.i. Fighter vertical climb & upper level
 

Hi, 1st I congrats to all Daidalos Team for the work about 1946 they are offering to improve this game still.

just my observation: would be possible to stop A.I. behaviour that we can see many times A.I. climb almost vertically for a long time gaining altitude and JUST EXACTLY at the moment of stall they level the nose and then continue to fly orizontally ..as nothing happened :confused: .. THIS is really annoying and innatural .. and frustrating.. because A.I. using - I see OFTEN- this manevuer A.I. make a lot of cheat:
1) it use this quite innatural manover to evade from enemy (human or A.i.)
2) It use often this manover to jump from high to hit you or other A.I. planes.

Please can DAIDALOS TEAM LOOK to solve this?.

What happens if you order him "TAB-1-8-2" to get back in formation and to follow you leading back home or "TAB-2-9-3" back to home base and follow him back to home base?

Im an offliner and I've never seen this bahaviour.
Is this an online occurance?
AI cheats in other ways all through the enhancments of AI behaviour changes, but usually if they vert up until stall, they drop their noses and vert down until regain of controll.
Eventually it just looks alike, when you head onto them with intention for a kill lacking energy and starve in sight of them without proper situational awareness.
It sometimes looks líke that.
Eventually a energy superior AI opponent with good Situational awareness tricks you out, if he recognizes, that you are about to stall and breaks his vert up towards horizontal flight, because he has enough margin for that maneuver, but it must not look like a sharp hook.
Rather a mor or less slight curve.
Bf109s can do that if you sit in a mosca.