Lol..That wasnt the last screen mate.. i ended up on 48 kills/ 1 death and was flying on the server for just over 3 hours..

I used it like a 109 bnZ..difference is if you want to turn,chase or climb up to someone you can, nothing escapes..the only way you wouldnt get shot down by the mk2 is if i ran out of ammo and had to RTB, granted that happened a lot of times and i just bailed..couldnt be assed tbh

I havent said its not a good plane, i think it ownes...period, all i would like to see is the other AC that it fights to be given a chance on escape...staying 1k above it at full speed and only BnZ once isnt being 'given a chance' :)

As for DMG, it can take a lot but so can the 109 so I have no idea whats correct who is right and who is wrong on that...

Though i will say, after exploding countless 109 fuel tanks..and them to fly like they were seems a bit far fetched imho

I joined a server that had both the E-4 and the IIa.
I have not been in the E-4 much in combat so I thought I would see just how the E-4 really did compared to the IIa head to head.

This is a server with the English channel map mind you.

We came on head to head(E-4 and IIa)
I got the advantage on the IIa but lost him.

He got the advantage on me. I did some definitive moves and lost him.
But he never got on my 6 after that he got the heck out of there because he know that I had him and one lucky shot as I'v been told he would have been out.

This is the IIa that out fly's the 109's.

The truth is, in the E-4 109 I out did the that IIa.

I stayed around and another IIa showed up. The same thing. But this time he was on my 6. I out did him also in the E-4. And got the advantage.

Had it been a I or a Ia it would have been a ez score as we all know.

I have not been flying the 109's that much but it did not take long to learn how to get the advantage on the IIa in the 109.

Just like it did not take long to learn how to out fly the 109's in the IIa as the video showed.

Conclusion: It's not the IIa that's the problem but the pilot's of the 109's that are not as good as thy think.:rolleyes:

I like the ATAG server. But I also think thy are cheating the Server and the players by not having the IIa and having a more level playing field.

On other servers that have both planes the score's are not lop sided like thy are in the ATAG server for the 109's.

I'm not trying to flame anyone with this.
I'm not going by what other pilots say.
I'm going by what I did and found out.

flyer01

flyer, do one thing: Compare historic flight data with the in game performance of the 109 and then do the same for the spit 2a. You will see that the performance of the spit 2a is correct while in game the 109 does not reach its historic performance.

So there IS something wrong with the FM of the 109 whatever arguments ever you want to throw into this discussion.

LOL, Get Ready Razorback, they are going to try and flame you. Besides you are heating things up a bit with that last post.


JD
AKA_MattE

Im sorry but i really cannot see how you in a 109 escaped a Spit2 pilot..unless you were going flat out in a dive and you were using your barn door rudder to either out scissor him and hopefully get a shot in before you bleed to much 'E' and he will punish you if you do that

OR

once above 500kph you again used your rudder to switch direction knowing the Spits heavy surfaces wouldnt be able to match you..

Ive been on countless 109's at all speed and at stall speeds low on the dek, with flaps down and 100%PP and unlimited Boost you ARE NOT getting away from me..lol even if i lose you for 2-3 seconds and your going the other way ffs i can still catch you...I just dont get your conclusion, at all

Im sorry i dont agree with what your saying Razorbacks

Im past caring on if its in or out but please..thats lil story of your has got as much grunt as my screenshot

Exactly. Most of the designs back then were closely matched. Having all fighter designs in the sim currently being undermodeled while a single one is the only one to be modeled correctly to specs is creating a non-historical relative performance situation: the Spit IIa might be flying right in terms of absolute performance, but the performance gaps between the IIa and every other fighter are wrong because everything else is undermodeled.

The solution? We could either undermodel the Spit IIa as well to maintain correct relative performance, or "upgrade" the rest of the fighters to their historically correct FM to do the same (obviously, the second choice is the desirable one :-P).

One of the fastest fighters during the BoB was the 110, but you don't see it being employed that way because of the flutter effect onset at 500km/h making it impossible to BnZ people. No single-engined fighter during the BoB enjoyed a 100km/h advantage over other fighters, but in the sim that's what happens with the MkIIa. Hurricanes weren't faster than Spit Mk.Is but in the sim they are and their roles reversed because of the propeller mix-up. Why does all that happen? Simply, because the FMs need fine tuning.

In the meantime, since we don't have fully accurate FMs, we can tailor planesets around having accurate match-ups in terms of relative performance
;)


What that means for people who are flying MP is to either restrict the numbers of Mk.IIa Spits, ban them altogether, or give them a far-behind-the-lines spawning location so that others can get a chance to get the drop on them, until the 110s and 109s can bounce them like they historically did and the rest of the RAF fighters don't utterly suck compared to the IIa like they didn't suck historically either.

To sum up, it's not so much how the Spit Mk.II flies, but how the rest of the fighters fly: the Spit Mk.II might be the only fighter to be really close to historical performance, but at the same time there was no fighter during the BoB that was 100km/h faster than anything else. That's the problem here, the relative performance inaccuracy which creates non-historical tactical situations, not a single FM all by itself. ;)

Sorry but that pilot must have been a greenhorn. Normally you cant say that its that simple to win a fight by just pulling harder into one direction until you are on the opponents tail. Sitting in a Spit IIa it IS! The spit IIa outturns the 109 in a matter of seconds. And what follows is the 109 being in the recticle of the spit with no chance of escape. Neither up or down or level. Nothing helps.
You can talk as much as you want. Fact remains: Even skilled pilots. One in a IIa, one in a 109. 109=TOAST!
Also i CANNOT understand why you keep insisting in this being wrong. It IS the truth. For me you indeed are nothing but a red jockey that fears for his cheat being removed. Get into a hurri or Ia and you EARNED your victory and can be proud of it. Not by taking this victory using the IIa cheat.

Blackdog summed it up just right. Those are the honest facts.

Winger

Having been on MP regularly I have to agree that, in terms of fair play, it was the correct decision. I guess I am a 'convert' ....(not to 'Blue'....:grin:)

Jamz and Krupi went Red (to even the teams I guess?)...if so, that's 'fair play' and a credit to them. I doubt anyone could accuse many of the guys (who argued for the Spit Mk2 to be dropped) of being biased.

Sorry Winger but the I and the Ia are not right and you do not care about that.

If the I and the Ia where right you would want them off the server if you could not out fly them.

I was on a server where I was flying for the blue team but was able to fly the IIa and was out done by the other pilot flying the IIa more then I liked. lol

The IIa brought some fair play to the server IMO.
The ATAG Server is not putting in the IIa so you got what you wanted. Have fun shooting down the under powered Spit Fires and Ez spin out Hurri. lol


flyer01

We still going.....?

Yes SSE me and Krupi flew Red because the teams were uneven mate..

The Spit1 is a real pig getting to Alt and I cooked the engine once I got there which was nice, managed to bag 2 italian bombers and a Low 109 before spinning helplessly into the ground from pulling too hard with a snap shot.

Took a Hurri up and outflew a 109 to get some nice hits and again crashed into the Grd lol.

Really have to work on that...I want me 109 back :)

This is what I said

We came on head to head(E-4 and IIa)
I got the advantage on the IIa but lost him.

He got the advantage on me. I did some definitive moves and lost him.
But he never got on my 6 after that he got the heck out of there because he know that I had him and one lucky shot as I'v been told he would have been out.


Why do you say I out ran him? That's not what I said.

I did said > have fun shooting down the under powered Spitfires.

+1 to what cheese said!

We should organize a 1v1 server to prove the truth.
5 or 10 km apart, at the same speed, same altitude start toward each other. First meeting is free to shoot or not. This decision should be made. The server is password protected, and the dogfights organizing on chat. Whoever is inside, can follow the fights by external view. I fly Spit II very gladly, against anyone who says that the 109 can shoot it down. 8-) Or even Spit I it also prove that it is not a bad AC, as claimed. :rolleyes:

Please do it, make a gentleman passby (dont shoot in headon and start turning as soon as wintips passed each other). I BET real money on the 109 being defeated in no time, no matter the pilot given the Spit pilot is no greenhorn.

Winger

I never argued that the I and Ia AND hurri are not right.......................
So is the 109..........................
But given that they STILL offer a balance in performance like its seemingly right even historicalwise.
I told that advantages to disadvantages now several times and am tired to over and over repeat myself.

Winger

Winger sorry not a personnel attack here but It's hard to under stand what you mean.
I do not think your English is very good. Or you do a lot of double talk.
As far as setting up a server to fly the IIa and the E-4 there are already servers that have both.
Join in and have at it. lol

Yes LOL:P Obviously you dont get it. But definately not because of my english. (i admit its not my motherlanguage and therefor no the best)
Btw. Its not your motherlanguage as well right:)?

Winger

that post screams for evidence!i would suggest that someone who is used to fly british fighters, takes a spitII and fights against you in a E4 on a closed server.both starting at the same alt and speed.if i would have ever flown a spit in cliffs of dover, i would volunteer for that experiment.
...but i bet that its only a matter of seconds until you end up in the crosshair...

I don't doubt you and I predict that if I was in the Spit against an Ace in the E4 I would lose. I know I've said this before but all talk of historical accuracy and balance has to include pilots of different abilities. Doesn't it?

Obviously I do get it.
You do not want the IIa in any server because you like to make yourself feel good by shooting down the under powered Spitfires.

The IIa was a better fighter then the 109 in a dog fight. did that mean thy never got shot down no.
When I first got into MP I knew that the Spitfires where not what thy should be.
I was told by the 109 pilots that it was not the plane but that the 109 pilots where better then the Spitfire pilots and the 109 where modeled right.

Now we hear that the 109 are not right.

When a pilot went out on his own during the war thy would be in big trouble if thy made it back with out being jumped by a group of enemy planes.

When thy talk about advantage thy where talking about numbers.

The 109 pilots would take on the IIa if and only if thy had the numbers to do so because thy knew it was a better plane.

What are you going to do when thy make the FM of the I and Ia fly like thy should?

Then theyll fix the 109 along with them and the 109 will still remain the better climber and faster plane. Like it really was.
And the balance remains like it currently is.

Winger

You are right with the IIa in the severe's to give the balance.

Hopeless. I am done with you:) Have fun in your UFO:P

winger

That's the point. The 109 undermodelled too.

Read it slowly :rolleyes: : The performance of Spit I, Spit Ia, Hurri, 109 E-1, E-3, E-4 is undermodelled. The Spit II is not.
This is a huge and unfair advantage in parameters also, which should not. Do you understand why this problem? Relative to each other, there are no differences between the other aircrafts. The RAF planes turn better, the 109 climb better, and fastest a bit. The dive speeds almost equal. Spit is better at a manoeuvring ability, the Hurri more sluggish than the 109...

I fear you can go over and over and over and over this same topic and 'some' people just do not get it and STILL think this is a big conspiracy to make it easier for the Blue side..

They really DO NOT get the whole ''undermoddeled/incorrect FM'' bit

dont waste your time trying to spell it out to him guys. i sort of miss the IIa now, especially when this flyer01 was online, he was my favorite person to vulch, lost track of the amount of times i pk'ed him, his little spaceship rarely blasted off ;)

Craig

I dont think hes THAT dumb thou. I just think he doesnt WANT to get it:)
Or is it possible that he really is?

Winger

Ok, lets see if this example makes people understand....

You have 3 cars:
1.- Ferrari
2.- Porsche
3.- Lamborghini

Ferrari and Porsche have the engine of a Volkswagen beetle (the old ones).
Lamborghini has a 12 cylinder 400HP engine.

Obviously, the Lamborghini has the correct engine but the Ferrari and Porsche are no match for it, making it an unfair race.
There are two solutions for this:
1.- Install the VW engine on the Lamborghini bringing them all to similar and competitive specs.
2.- Install the real engine on the Ferrari and Porsche.

Until 1 or 2 happens, Lamborghini should not be allowed in the race unless is a Lamborghini only race (Option 2 being the preferred/expected/desired/optimal/wanted solution).


The same logic applies if you replace:
Ferrari --> 109
Porsche --> spit I and/or Hurri
Lamborghini -> spit IIa

option 2 is the only real solution, this is a sim so it's got to be!

LOL , The thought of a Ferrari with a ac 1300cc vdub engine is just too much for my mind to comprehend. I'd pay money to see a race of this sort. Maybe Top Gear could do it as a challenge.:grin:

Lol..I have seen a Lambo Kit car with a Toyota MR2 engine in!

Ok I see now -------you think that I just want to have the IIa in because its the best plane and the 109's are not right.

You do not get it.

The 109's out fly out turn and out clime and out shot the Spitfire- I know I fly in MP I have seen this for myself and when a 109 gets on you in a I,Ia or a Hurri it will out run out turn and most of all out fire power the brit planes.

What do you not understand about that?

And most have said--- yes thy do.:eek:
But------ put in the IIa that is able to do the something to the 109's and it has to be taken out.

That is my point and you know that.

Sheesh.... you might need to practice some more, not saying you are a crap pilot or anything but well.....! ;)

HAHAHAHHAHA I really hope for your creditably that you don't mean that...

What sort of pilot are you up against who doesn't out turn you in a Spit, ''You gota be Shi*ting me'' as my Gf would say....please dont say your at Alt and are applying vertical moves in there too cuz guess what? on that instance your prob right...and any spit pilot worth his salt wouldnt follow you or try and keep that going..

What you want is the 109 to lose Alt and 'E' too then your cook his sorry a$$ for being a numpty..And as for the 109 outrunning the Hurri? Hmm debatable, what ALt was that btw or did you test them all?

My god, this discussion is getting funny as...

This is simply not true. The turning rate of RAF airplanes is better than german planes. The corner speed is the key (check out what it means). If you pull without brain, then every plane is a ****pile... of course,if they fight with an equal energy level. If the 109 dive from above, the whole situation already ****** up :rolleyes:

For me it doesn't seem to matter, as I suck equally no matter which one I fly... I get whooped by JU-88's when I fly the IIa

No---- sorry---- this is true what I said about the 109's vs. the Brits planes other then the IIa.

I'm not a NB to flying MP.

trumps,
I did not think to much about what you did the other day while the IIa where trying to take off from the hillsides and in towns and far away from the other air fileds with no AA to help protect the pilots from that kind of thing. What got me was when I did get in the air after you shot not just me but others the same why you ran.

trumps your alright you just Sh!t to close to house.:)

glad im not the only one :cool:

Man this is entertaining. Good on ya Razorback, I don’t agree with your conclusions but it is sure entertaining to watch you whip the Spitfire Haters into a frenzy. LOL!

JD
AKA_MattE

No Spitfire hater here..Was in one last night, flown it loads in CoD and flew it exclusively in Il2

Not all servers have excluded the Spit Mk2 so, whatever the debate, there remains 'choice'. Not sure of the player numbers on those servers when ATAG is available.

Repka Isle of Doom map always seems to have players..Whoever wants to fly it go and fly it there :)

ATAG not showing so went on Repka English Channel Server. Spit Mk2 in plane set and a few other regulars Blue and Red too :grin:

Interestingly, the AI bombers are at low altitude. So, peering down, I spot a trio of Ju88's at 3.5K, went down in my Mk2 ( if it's available why the hell not!.....:grin:) to intercept but a pair of BF's that I hadn't seen were lurking high, down they zoomed and one stuffed a great big hole in my port wing.

I RTB with red eye and would have got a brand spanking new one but the server went down........justice prevails I hear you cry! It's a game...enjoy!

Lol..

That will teach yer! :cool:

Well, it seems there's a suitable car analogy for everything :-P

This is the best explanation of the issue up till now in the entire thread ;)

Thanks Blackdog.
The inspiration came after reading this ;):

http://marvinlee.net/blog/wp-content...03/dummies.png

Personally I wouldn't admit to buying that but hey ho... :-)

Razor, i suggest you look at some..no wait..All the documentation you can find on the E1-E3-E4 and the Hurri and your quite clearly see how nerfed the 109 is as far as performance goes..

Forget about the Spit2 for a min...

The Hurri was no where near as fast in a climb, a dive and top speed at sea leave or 5000m..we dont see that in game do we?

So forget about your lil tests and not knowing who the pilot was and his skill level..just take what ive said as backed up with a lot of evidence.

So on that note..were go back to the Spit2

Now...you want the Spit2 in game against the ONLY blue fighter that is completely porked as far as the FM goes? Is that what your saying here?

Also please forget about the Spit1/1a as that isnt the argument here but if you want to play tit for tat:

Blue 109 = porked
Red Spit= porked

We have to live with it but, this is the good bit: we have a matched plane set in game its the 109 and Hurri...that's the Devs faults and no one else's and until the FM is fixed on BOTH sides we have to live with it..

What we DONT do is introduce the plane whoever's side its on which is close to its RL data that you find on countless sites and books and put it against a plane that ISNT

FORGET ABOUT YOUR ENCOUNTERS WITH VARIED SKILLED PILOTS...it means nothing and Im surprised it really is taking this long to explain this

I hope this helps somewhat in explaining what we have tried to do for the last 200 posts not just to you Razor but to everyone whos flogging this horse...poor thing

And as for the server(s) not including it..fair play, theyre the ones that get my respect and you can guarantee as this game gets bigger and better they will be the ones that have the serious pilots flying in it because they will be the ones that introduce fair play and not just include a plane because the Devs give it to us..If its wrong and plain to see that its wrong and is completely porked it gets left out until its fixed... thats the server i wanna be in

You want the Spit2 and any other AC that is introduced with a incorrect FM or an obvious flaw..go and fly in an arcade server and smash the $*it out of each other

Razorback, we do want the 2a in the servers. We dont want the 2a in the servers until all fms are fixed. After that its fair game whether it outperforms the 109s or not. It has to be that way cayse when i get my 190 i dont want to hear it hehe.

As far as your observations go with the 109 having all the advantages against the 1 and 1a, you are just not correct. As stated, the 109 has the climb, negative g and speed at level flight. But the spit has the turning radious. If you fly a spit, which i do when the teams require me to do so, i take a 1a and climb. If you engage a 109 with more e then they have, they can only run. If you run into one with more e than you, you have your turn radious as a defense.

As far as turn radious goes, next time your in a server try the 1a and find a 109 with equal energy. Easy to do on repka since most of the 109 pilots there fly at the deck.(i dont know why). Get in a turn fight, put your prop pitch in fine mode, and pull back on your stick as far as it goes without stalling. Heres the trick, keep it there. Keep it on the fine line between stalling and turning. You will soon be behind the 109 that made the mistake of turning with you.

Please try this before stating that the 109 outturns the spit 1 or 1a.

I'm going to what for official patch to be released before I say an more about this.

Happy landings,
flyer01

All I know is that online was working great for the first time. I had the new experience in an E4 of being bounced from below by SpitIIs. Even with totally conservative E retention tactics (staying defensive, going for position above but not attacking) it felt like the hopeless situation of being in a P11 being attacked by a 25lber in old Il2. Within a few turns there was the Spit II casually spiralling up into firing position.

I appreciate the drive to get models as true as possible, but it was the relative imbalance that made me regretfully hit disconnect..it's just not fun after a couple times. I would be happy if devs start with accurate models and then tweak to get balance.

As far as i know this is a 'sim' not a 'game'.
they are a bit different.
A 'sim' is something that 'simulates' what really was.
It was not so balanced at the time (anyway i find BF109s are a bit underpowered in terms of engine power but may be just my feel).

S!

The problem is not the Spit IIa, it's the only plane in the sim that actually hits it's real world numbers.

Every other plane is underperforming, every single one, no matter the side.

This is not a Red vs. Blue issue, and I hope it won't turn into one. It's a simple matter of the current state of the sim. The FMs are due for a going over, and Luthier has said this is in the plan.

So let's wait till we get more accurate FMs before we get our pants in a twist over in game performance.

And in truth the aircraft that needs the most help is the G 50. It's so far off it isn't even funny. I am waiting to fly her, as I really like the Italian aircraft.

well said mate :D

Thanks, just trying to have a reasonable outlook on things at this point.