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-   IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/forumdisplay.php?f=189)
-   -   A potential fix for the Aircraft visibility problems? (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/showthread.php?t=34989)

GF_Mastiff 10-19-2012 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlipBall (Post 470362)
So David you were unable to track the dot in my file?...not sure what system you have but these are my settings, not sure if a factor.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...Ball/page1.jpg


http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...Ball/page2.jpg

So why are you pointing the Nvidia panel for user porfile to Steam . exe?

It should be pointed to the IL2, Launcher.exe..... That controls your game not steam, Steam is a user interface for gaming social program not for games exe.

SlipBall 10-19-2012 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GF_Mastiff (Post 470698)
So why are you pointing the Nvidia panel for user porfile to Steam . exe?

It should be pointed to the IL2, Launcher.exe..... That controls your game not steam, Steam is a user interface for gaming social program not for games exe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlipBall (Post 470428)
Yea but those are my Global settings as well, launcher is in there too I just didn't bother to use the drop down:)...thanks

:grin:

SQB 10-19-2012 09:44 AM

Currently having a lot of success with these modifications to the conf.ini file in the steam folders (NOT USER/MY DOCUMENTS!!):

ShowMeshLOD=8 (was 0, 1 gives poor fps)
VisibilityDistance=0 (turned down from original)

Contrast is set to 1.4 and gamma to 0.6 through a custom colour/shade modifier (though CCC or Nvidia control panel will do the same job) .

(I have a bright, 8bit monitor).

The game looks quite nice on these settings, keep in mind contrast and gamma are exponential differences in my program.

Stublerone 10-19-2012 09:52 AM

Just haven't read all posts, but what about resolution? Native resolution? A non native resolution could also draw wrong. It could be that aa draws it out of sight and it could be, that your monitors hardware is scaling like a nap!

My first aim in games is to always run it in native resolution to avoid bad scaling. Just my quick post to that topic ;)

David198502 10-19-2012 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SQB (Post 470770)
Currently having a lot of success with these modifications to the conf.ini file in the steam folders (NOT USER/MY DOCUMENTS!!):

ShowMeshLOD=8 (was 0, 1 gives poor fps)
VisibilityDistance=0 (turned down from original)

Contrast is set to 1.4 and gamma to 0.6 through a custom colour/shade modifier (though CCC or Nvidia control panel will do the same job) .

(I have a bright, 8bit monitor).

The game looks quite nice on these settings, keep in mind contrast and gamma are exponential differences in my program.

mh thats interesting and definitely worth a try, as i get really poor fps with meshshowlod=1!
i remember i also tried to put other values than 1 into meshshowlod line....but i think i gave up before i entered 8....

why do you adjusted your conf.ini in your steam folder and not in the 1c one?

EDIT: ok i just tried it....if i put meshshowlod=8 into th steam conf.ini,...there is no change in visibility, and planes still disappear
if i adjust the 1c conf.ini,.....then the planes dont disappear anymore, and fps seem to be as good as with meshshowlod=0,....but then i have no cockpit visible anymore, and can see partly through the remaining textures of my plane...

but the game doesnt accept meshshowlod=8, cause when i quit the game, and opened the conf.ini, it was reset to meshshowlod=6

notafinger! 10-19-2012 11:34 AM

I am skeptical that any of these conf.ini changes make a difference unless somebody can post proof. Make a mission in the FMB with planes at different distances and see what is visible with the conf.ini changes. I did this before when people were claiming VisibilityDistance=4 or 5 made a difference and I can tell you from testing the game does not recognize a value above 3.

Making changes to the conf.ini in the Steam folder doesn't make sense as that is a template for creating new conf.ini's in the 1C SoftClub folder. That is certainly not the conf.ini the program is using at start up.

These sound like placebos and the reason you think you are spotting contacts better is because there are twice as many people playing now as ever before.

David198502 10-19-2012 11:56 AM

yeah notafinger,....im also pretty confident, that adjusting the conf.ini in the steam directory doesnt have any effect at all, as its only the backup...adjusting the conf.ini in the 1c softclub folder and the MeshShowLod line does indeed have an effect though...

for me:
Meshshowlod=0 fluid performance, but contacts totally disappear in midrange
=1 half the framerate,stutters, but contacts stay visible
everything above 1 leads to disappearing parts of your own plane....the higher the value, the more parts of your plane disappear...

the highest value accepted by the game seems to be meshshowlod=6
as it will reset itself automatically as soon as you enter anything above 6

the annoying thing though is, that with all those values above 1 the other planes stay visible and dont disappear, while the performance is still fluid...but unfortunately its not of use, as you own plane isnt visible....

IvanK 10-19-2012 12:38 PM

Well I changed meshSowlod=8 in the Steam side of the house, went in and flew then checked after exit and it was still set =8. I have Steam cloud turned off though. So it wont always reset itself.

notafinger! 10-19-2012 01:12 PM

I can confirm what David said. Any changes to conf.ini in Steam folder has no effect. Meshshowlod=8 in 1C SoftClub conf.ini will revert to Meshshowlod=6 and results in no cockpit and 3d externals that look like they are from an early 90's DOS game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IvanK (Post 470857)
Well I changed meshSowlod=8 in the Steam side of the house, went in and flew then checked after exit and it was still set =8. I have Steam cloud turned off though. So it wont always reset itself.

You can put whatever you want in the conf.ini stored in Steam\steamapps\common\il-2 sturmovik cliffs of dover. The game does not use that file. As a test you can delete it completely and the game will still launch and run just fine. The only conf.ini file that matters is stored in ~\Documents\1C SoftClub\il-2 sturmovik cliffs of dover. Change Meshshowlod= in that file and you will see what it actually does to your game.

David198502 10-19-2012 06:06 PM

and the disappearing problem is a specific spitfire problem they introduced with a patch...
at least for me, all the other planes stay visible...but the spit disappears completely..

i cant believe that this really annoying bug made it into the last update of clod......gosh im angry

HR_Naglfar 10-19-2012 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David198502 (Post 471013)
and the disappearing problem is a specific spitfire problem they introduced with a patch...
at least for me, all the other planes stay visible...but the spit disappears completely..

i cant believe that this really annoying bug made it into the last update of clod......gosh im angry

To me it happens with all fighters with MeshShowLod=0, it's not just the Spitfire.

David198502 10-21-2012 09:13 AM

the disappearing also depends with with FOV you prefer to fly....i noticed yesterday, that the planes only seem to completely disappear with a FOV from ~80° or higher...
if i fly with the standard 70° FOV, the planes start to flicker in the critical range,and are hard to spot, but dont disappear completely...

Blennydude 10-22-2012 01:45 PM

I'm at a complete loss with plane disappearances so far. I can't remember the last time planes stayed visible from detection to close range.
Now that the game appears at least playable, with some FM components approaching reality, this is the next game-breaking bug that keeps me from having any fun with CoD - it's just SO frustrating I could almost cry.

I run a 1920*1080 resolution (ATI HD 5xxx series, 1GB VRAM), which is the native one for my monitor, and so far, nothing has helped. Quite often, I feel that I can't spot anything at all (which is not a problem of me needing better glasses, if you suspect that ;) - normally, I can spot things from pretty far out). As an example: A few days ago, on ATAG, people reported 6 109s on the deck, right where I was - but the first thing I saw of them was when I checked my 6 after getting fatal hits...
And, at other times, I've got the problem most people report - that I can spot planes from far out, only to have them disappear, and (sometimes) reappear when it's way too late.
As I said, I'm at a complete loss, and it's just soo frustrating. I just want to play a combat flight simulation and I don't see why I'm not allowed to do that! *sigh*.

I tried everything that has been proposed so far, chiefly among it the MeshShowLod=1 setting in conf.ini. Setting this costs some FPS, but it's certainly still playable - except that it does seemingly nothing.
I also overheard(read) somebody mentioning that object detail has to be at "high" - which it is, per defauilt, on my setting - nothing.
Playing with other graphic settings, p.ex. setting texture details to "original", also yielded nothing at all.

I always feel like I'm flying completely alone on ATAG - the "biggest" proof that there are other people in the air are flak puffs over home territory... but, strangely, as long as I am on the ground, things *seem* to work, with fellow pilots being visible, taking off alongside me, and if airspace is busy over the airfield, the action is quite clearly visible...

Sooooo, if anybody has a tip how to finally get rid of this da*** problem, I would be very, very, VERY grateful. I even would fly with a skin with the words "I <3 <helper>!!11" on it, if provided with one! :)


Just one time having a good time in CoD - just one time - please... :(

SQB 10-22-2012 02:27 PM

Well, I think I've found the problem. There's a gap between the fade out range (where the model of the aircraft disappears) and where the dot comes in. This is why FOV appears to make a difference (which LOD to use is a product of distance and FOV). To change this... setting the LOD to run out to infinity (meshshowlod=1) will do the trick, but you'll kill your computer. If I knew what lines changed things I would make it so the dot appears on any aircraft at any distance, it's still to have it come in at a certain range.

SlipBall 10-22-2012 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blennydude (Post 472032)
I'm at a complete loss with plane disappearances so far. I can't remember the last time planes stayed visible from detection to close range.
Now that the game appears at least playable, with some FM components approaching reality, this is the next game-breaking bug that keeps me from having any fun with CoD - it's just SO frustrating I could almost cry.

I run a 1920*1080 resolution (ATI HD 5xxx series, 1GB VRAM), which is the native one for my monitor, and so far, nothing has helped. Quite often, I feel that I can't spot anything at all (which is not a problem of me needing better glasses, if you suspect that ;) - normally, I can spot things from pretty far out). As an example: A few days ago, on ATAG, people reported 6 109s on the deck, right where I was - but the first thing I saw of them was when I checked my 6 after getting fatal hits...
And, at other times, I've got the problem most people report - that I can spot planes from far out, only to have them disappear, and (sometimes) reappear when it's way too late.
As I said, I'm at a complete loss, and it's just soo frustrating. I just want to play a combat flight simulation and I don't see why I'm not allowed to do that! *sigh*.

I tried everything that has been proposed so far, chiefly among it the MeshShowLod=1 setting in conf.ini. Setting this costs some FPS, but it's certainly still playable - except that it does seemingly nothing.
I also overheard(read) somebody mentioning that object detail has to be at "high" - which it is, per defauilt, on my setting - nothing.
Playing with other graphic settings, p.ex. setting texture details to "original", also yielded nothing at all.

I always feel like I'm flying completely alone on ATAG - the "biggest" proof that there are other people in the air are flak puffs over home territory... but, strangely, as long as I am on the ground, things *seem* to work, with fellow pilots being visible, taking off alongside me, and if airspace is busy over the airfield, the action is quite clearly visible...

Sooooo, if anybody has a tip how to finally get rid of this da*** problem, I would be very, very, VERY grateful. I even would fly with a skin with the words "I <3 <helper>!!11" on it, if provided with one! :)

Just one time having a good time in CoD - just one time - please... :(


Try watching my track file up above. If the dot disappears, then maybe it is in your system some where.

David198502 10-22-2012 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SQB (Post 472047)
Well, I think I've found the problem. There's a gap between the fade out range (where the model of the aircraft disappears) and where the dot comes in. This is why FOV appears to make a difference (which LOD to use is a product of distance and FOV). To change this... setting the LOD to run out to infinity (meshshowlod=1) will do the trick, but you'll kill your computer. If I knew what lines changed things I would make it so the dot appears on any aircraft at any distance, it's still to have it come in at a certain range.

yeah its exactly that, a gap between the dot model and the 3d lod model, where just nothing is rendered...
when they introduced this bug, i thought this was only a matter of a few days until a hotfix will be available...its really puzzling, as this is a major bug and really ridiculous that it actually made it into the final release...

the last two days i was spending much time and fiddled with the conf.ini file, to see if there is a workaroung except the meshshowlod=1 trick.up until now, without any result unforutantely...
having to zoom in to avoid the vanishing is of course possible, but you will lose situational awareness....
i dont believe, that this would be hard to fix for the devs, but what do i know.

SQB 10-23-2012 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David198502 (Post 472102)
yeah its exactly that, a gap between the dot model and the 3d lod model, where just nothing is rendered...
when they introduced this bug, i thought this was only a matter of a few days until a hotfix will be available...its really puzzling, as this is a major bug and really ridiculous that it actually made it into the final release...

the last two days i was spending much time and fiddled with the conf.ini file, to see if there is a workaroung except the meshshowlod=1 trick.up until now, without any result unforutantely...
having to zoom in to avoid the vanishing is of course possible, but you will lose situational awareness....
i dont believe, that this would be hard to fix for the devs, but what do i know.

Well, part of the reason is that back when the game was released the dot was rendered at ALL ranges, even when taxiing next to a spitfire you could see a little 2D dot just under/behind the cockpit. They must've taken that out to make the game more photogenic, but put the distance out too far.

David198502 10-23-2012 03:50 AM

yeah i think you are right....
but back then, the lod model didnt grind my pc to a halt.....now when i put in the conf.ini the line mehsshowlod to 1, i get terrible fps...it would be playable offline for some reason though, online its totally unplayable...fps between 1-30 jumping up and down in split seconds, stutters and freezes for more than a few seconds...

i definitely didnt have that in the release version or in any other version when the lod model was different.

in the meanwhile i seemed to found out, that putting the resolution to the native one seems to cure the probelm....but again, people with weak systems just like me, really dont want to do that....with lowering the resolution i get the biggest performance gain next to disabling shadows...

Blennydude 10-23-2012 04:57 AM

As I wrote above, I run with the native Monitor resolution and I've got massive LoD problems, so this doesn't cure the problem for me, sadly :(
I have disabled shadows, too, though.

Blennydude 10-23-2012 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlipBall (Post 472051)
Try watching my track file up above. If the dot disappears, then maybe it is in your system some where.

I watched your track. The text, as well as the actual aircraft "dot", is visible all the time; from the starting distance (about 1.20 or so), down to .80, where you slow down, and then up to around 5.30, where the text is no longer readable on my resolution - but I estimate it stays there up to 5.60 or so.

Then, I watched the track again, this time with MeshShowLod=1. This yielded the exact same result; the plane as well as the text remained visible all the time. Exactly the same, with no newly introduced stutters or so.

Meanwhile, on ATAG, I searched in vain for a 14-plane Ju88 formation, as advertised by "Chain Home" - nothing, except for a few flak puffs.
Then, I got shot down over France in the usual manner - Bang, Bang, critical dmg, Pilot dead - and after pressing Alt+F2, I was able to see the corresponding Me109 for the first time...
This must've been a happy time for the Me - Pilot :(

So I'm still at a loss and still begging for help! :mad:


P.S.: That other file, "confs.ini" in the Documents/1C.../il-2 sturmovik.../ folder has an option, under [core], called "LinearObjectManager(=1)". Could this be relevant in any way?

SlipBall 10-23-2012 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blennydude (Post 472329)
I watched your track. The text, as well as the actual aircraft "dot", is visible all the time; from the starting distance (about 1.20 or so), down to .80, where you slow down, and then up to around 5.30, where the text is no longer readable on my resolution - but I estimate it stays there up to 5.60 or so.

Then, I watched the track again, this time with MeshShowLod=1. This yielded the exact same result; the plane as well as the text remained visible all the time. Exactly the same, with no newly introduced stutters or so.

Meanwhile, on ATAG, I searched in vain for a 14-plane Ju88 formation, as advertised by "Chain Home" - nothing, except for a few flak puffs.
Then, I got shot down over France in the usual manner - Bang, Bang, critical dmg, Pilot dead - and after pressing Alt+F2, I was able to see the corresponding Me109 for the first time...
This must've been a happy time for the Me - Pilot :(

So I'm still at a loss and still begging for help! :mad:


P.S.: That other file, "confs.ini" in the Documents/1C.../il-2 sturmovik.../ folder has an option, under [core], called "LinearObjectManager(=1)". Could this be relevant in any way?


That's the thing the dot is there, people including my self will at time's loose track of it. Partly luck, but mostly looking in the right spot is the key. It really is a developed skill over a period of time. For myself I try to not take my eyes off of it, and to determine his heading. Many times if you loose it, look where it should be. If he spotted you, why then he could be anywhere trying to get on your six.

Wolf_Rider 10-23-2012 01:48 PM

A possible recreation attempt??

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/blindspot1.html

tintifaxl 10-23-2012 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David198502 (Post 471013)
and the disappearing problem is a specific spitfire problem they introduced with a patch...
at least for me, all the other planes stay visible...but the spit disappears completely..

i cant believe that this really annoying bug made it into the last update of clod......gosh im angry

I saw this behavior with an enemy Rotol Hurri, in an offline mission. Label and plane became invisible at 2.4 km distance, guestimated 400 m below me. Vanished for ~2 seconds then reappeared at 1.5 km. This was with MeshShowLod=1 in my conf.ini in the myuser folder.

Blennydude 10-23-2012 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlipBall (Post 472343)
That's the thing the dot is there, people including my self will at time's loose track of it. Partly luck, but mostly looking in the right spot is the key. It really is a developed skill over a period of time. For myself I try to not take my eyes off of it, and to determine his heading. Many times if you loose it, look where it should be. If he spotted you, why then he could be anywhere trying to get on your six.

Hmm I don't really understand your answer. But if you're suggesting that I'm not looking hard enough, I am 100% positive that this is not the case. There's just no way. As I have written, planes which should be VERY close, also elude me... (yes, I check my six regularly).

SlipBall 10-23-2012 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blennydude (Post 472444)
Hmm I don't really understand your answer. But if you're suggesting that I'm not looking hard enough, I am 100% positive that this is not the case. There's just no way. As I have written, planes which should be VERY close, also elude me... (yes, I check my six regularly).


You were able to track my dot in the file, so I cannot say why you continue to have a problem. I hope that you find a cure:-)

David198502 10-23-2012 05:27 PM

ok meanwhile we tested on more systems, and it seems that three things are important to get rid of the disappearing bug...
resolution
model details
FOV

if you fly with a low resolution, use medium or low model detail settings and use a FOV higher than 70° you will be able to "create" a really big range where contacts totally disappear...

SQB 10-24-2012 09:08 AM

Holy hell, so I just jumped in singleplayer to test the colour modifications and... decided to play around a little.


What I found shocked me, there doesn't seem to be *a dot* anymore, for aircraft. Instead we are literally looking at the pixel that is the aircraft, when it was meant to have a dot, like ground forces. This dot literally does not exist. Because of this, the shape and size of the aircraft is paramount, at certain angles an easily visible aircraft becomes invisible and so on and so forth. The worst places is actually near the horizon, because aircraft so often fly straight and level.

I have video evidence (plain as day), but I don't know my way around video editing programs. If anybody could give me a quick how to it would be much appreciated. In the mean time I will build some .gifs, which I know how to make.


EDIT: OH, I almost forgot. Everyone post your settings (conf.ini) here. I'll sort through them and see if any of them actually work! First off, I'll try defaults but showmeshlod=1.

IvanK 10-24-2012 10:27 AM

I agree. In the little experimentation I have done with InjectFX first contact ranges have increased dramatically ... unnaturally so. Aircraft at long range appear as a stark black pixel. To me they are of fixed dimension too. They dont seem to start as a tiny pin prick then slowly grow.

SQB 10-24-2012 10:36 AM

Well shit, disregard my last. Dots do not appear on your own aircraft (even if you zoom out all the way) so my whole argument is invalid.

Blennydude 10-25-2012 10:13 AM

well, my conf.ini:
Code:

[BOB]
EpilepsyFilter=0

[window]
  DepthBits  =24
  StencilBits=8
  DrawIfNotFocused=0
  SaveAspect=0
Render=D3D10_0
width=1920
height=1080
ColourBits=32
FullScreen=1
ChangeScreenRes=1
posLeft=0
posTop=0
Frequency=60
StereoMode=0

[NET]
  speed=25000
  localPort=3724
  serverName=My Server
  serverDescription=IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover
  serverInfo1=
  serverInfo2=
  serverInfo3=
  serverInfo4=
  VAC=1
  maxPlayers=16
  socksEnable=0
  socksHost=
  socksPort=1080
  socksUser=
  socksPwd=
localHost=
host=216.52.148.29
port=27016
SkinDownload=1

[Console]
  IP=20001
  UseStartLog=1
  WRAP=1
  PAUSE=1
  HISTORY=1024
  HISTORYCMD=1024
  PAGE=20
  LOG=0
  LOGTIME=0
  LOAD=console.cmd
  SAVE=console.cmd
  LOGFILE=log.txt
  LOGKEEP=0

[rts]
tickLen=30
;ProcessAffinityMask=3
maxTimerTicksInRealTick=20
; 0 - not use, 1 - show cursor and not capture, 2 - not show cursor, and capture
mouseUse=2
; 0 - not use, 1 - use if hardware exist
joyUse=1
; 0 - not use, 1 - use if hardware exist
trackIRUse=1
DisableIME=0
culture=en-GB

[rts_mouse]
SensitivityX=1.0
SensitivityY=1.0
SensitivityZ=1.0
Invert=0
SwapButtons = 0

[rts_joystick]
FF=0

[core]
RandSeed = 0
TexQual=3
TexFlags.PolygonStipple=0
Shadows=0
SpecularLight=2
DiffuseLight=2
DynamicalLights=1
MeshDetail=2
LandShading=0
LandDetails=2
Sky=3
Forest=1
VisibilityDistance=3
LandGeom=2
DrawCollisions=1
Water=-1
Effects=2
EffFlags.Light=1
EffFlags.SpriteRender=0
Grass=3
CordEffect=1
UseFog=0
UseLandCube=1
UseLandConnectedObject=1
LinearObjectManager=1
Roads=1
Sun=1
Clouds=1
EffFlags.LightSpritesProj=1
ShadowMapSize=5
TexFlags.AsyncLoad=1
TexFlags.ShowTexture=0
SimpleMesh.SWTransform=0
SimpleMesh.QuadTreeClip=1
SimpleMesh.InstancingHW=1
EffFlags.LightContextSprites=1
CloudsFlags.Detailed=1
TexFlags.CreateHDR=1
Decals=2
EffFlags.SWLight=0
TexFlags.CockpitOnePass=0
MegaTexture=0
TexFlags.Reflection=0
RenderTargetQual=3
MSAA=0
MeshStatics=1
MeshStaticsDetail=1
SimpleMesh.QTNoCompose=0
MeshFirstLod=0
MeshShowLod=0
SpawnHumans=1
TexFlags.FastTransparency=1
TexFlags.SSAO=0
TexFlags.VSync=1

[sound]
SoundUse=1
DebugSound=0
SoundEngine=1
Speakers=1
Placement=0
SoundFlags.reversestereo=0
RadioFlags.Enabled=1
RadioEngine=2
MusicVolume=14
ObjectVolume=7
MusState.takeoff=1
MusState.inflight=1
MusState.crash=1
MusFlags.play=1
MasterVolume=14
Attenuation=7
SoundMode=0
SamplingRate=0
NumChannels=2
SoundExt.occlusions=1
SoundFlags.hardware=1
SoundFlags.streams=1
SoundFlags.duplex=1
SoundExt.acoustics=1
SoundExt.volumefx=1
SoundFlags.voicemgr=1
SoundFlags.static=1
VoiceVolume=8
Channels=1
SoundFlags.bugscorrect=0
SoundExt.extrender=0
SoundSetupId=8
ActivationLevel=0.02
Preemphasis=0.8
RadioLatency=0.5
AGC=1
PTTMode=1
RadioFlags.PTTMode=0
RadioFlags.PlayClicks=1
ActLevel=9
MicLevel=10
SoundFlags.UseRadioChatter=0
SoundFlags.AutoActivation=0
SoundFlags.forceEAX1=0
speakers=1
vgMaster=15
vgVoice=15
vgMusic=10

[game]
mapPadX=0.65
mapPadY=0.08055556
mirror=0
mapPadDX=0.35
mapPadDY=0.6


zapatista 10-27-2012 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David198502 (Post 472465)
ok meanwhile we tested on more systems, and it seems that three things are important to get rid of the disappearing bug...
- resolution
- model details
- FOV

if you fly with a low resolution, use medium or low model detail settings and use a FOV higher than 70° you will be able to "create" a really big range where contacts totally disappear...


i think you are on the right track there, but we need to first differentiate what all the different people mean by "having trouble seeing/tracking" aircraft, and from peoples comments in this thread we have a few different issues involved
1) how well people can see distant aircraft dots or the smallest CoD LoD models in the far distance (against open sky or terrain background): lcd display technology is a factor there (TN monitors doing significantly better), but the small dots and smallest LoD models are NOT visible enough against terrain background for most players (due to the flat 2D nature of current monitor displays, it all blends together to much)
2) how well people can see medium distance LoD models: this is i believe the OP's main topic, and he suggests the LoD models need some form of visual enhancement. similar issues as point 1, TN screens have an advantage but their visibility is generally under-modeled compared to visibility in real life from a real aircraft
3) some people stating aircraft in the medium distance can suddenly become invisible (either a LoD model programing error for some planes, or other issue)

for any of these visibility issues, to compare apples with apples it is critical players standardize as much as possible what we are looking at, and how it is displayed:
- monitors need to be set to the correct FoV for their monitor size and distance they sit from it, only then will we know how good/bad CoD is recreating the distant aircraft visibility
- monitors should be set to their native resolutions,
- have object/model detail set to high if possible (but it is well possible that lower detail settings for buildings and aircraft makes them easier to spot/track ?)

for those who havnt considered how to find their "correct FoV" setting (which in the il2 series could then be bound to the "normal" view key (allowing them to see all in-game objects in their correct 1:1 sizes, and hence giving in theory correct visibility for distant objects), with an additional "wide view" (90) that could be briefly used for increasing SA during a dogfight for ex (but shrinks all in-game objects significantly, making them much harder to spot), and a "zoomed view" (35) which is like strapping on a set of binoculars (with tunnel vision) and hence significantly magnifies everything you look at

how to find what is your own personal "normal FoV" for il2/CoD

your "normal" il2 CoD FoV = {arctan [ (horz size monitor/2) / monitor distance ] } x2

for ex, for my 27' screen (58 cm wide), which during il2 gaming i have from my eyes at a distance of 60 cm (note, dont mix metric and imperial, mind your decimal places, and make sure you use how wide your monitor display area is not the diagonal measurement !), this would mean for me:

{arctan [ (0.58 / 2) / 0.60 ] } x2
{arctan [ 0.29 / 0.60 ] } x2
{arctan [ 0.4833 ] } x2
{ 25.796 } x 2
= 51.592

so for me, with my monitor size and sitting at that viewing distance, my "normal FoV" in il2/CoD should be set at 50. and only then will i, or should i, be able to see objects in their correct sizes for the distance they are from me. if I however use a wider then normal FoV (for ex the default "normal" right now in CoD is 70 FoV), then the distant objects will shrink significantly, and my visibility of them will significantly reduce (because now i am seeing LoD model 8 for ex instead of LoD model 5 which is significantly larger)

and my observation, and most il2 series users, was that in the il2 series visibility of these distant aircraft LoD models (against terrain background) was about 1/2 to 1/3 of what it should be in real life, eg instead of for ex overflying fields and roads at 1200 meters and spotting individual tanks or trucks (or parked single engine aircraft at an airfield), you needed to be at 300 meters in this game ! in effect in the il2 series we were flying around in a "mini SA bubble", which didnt SIMULATE a real ww2 pilot experience

from my experience so far in CoD, we are again dealing with similar visibility issues, and as the OP suggested, we need to find some way to get this across to luthier and then get him to adjust the distant LoD model visibility so it makes up for the problem that the gfx engine might well model the distant object correctly in size, but it doesnt stand out as well as a similar object would in real life (on a pc display with current technology the 2D Lod model blends in to much with the flat 2D landscape being displayed

note: currently in CoD as far as i know we can only set our FoV to the 3 preset values they included, and despite numerous requests during the beta patches to provide us with the 5 degree incremental settings we had in il-1946 (where you could set it at steps of 5 degrees from 35 to 90), we are still stuck with this. (note, for most people with mid size monitors they can use the 70 setting and sit closer to their monitors to correct for the excessively high FoV. using the 35 FoV setting is not a valid option however since it works like using a fair of binoculars in the game, and provides significant magnification and cant be used as a "normal" comparison). one forum member (ataros) suggested that the kegetis mod tool allows you to set a specific FoV but i havnt tried it yet (and might not be compatible online ?) (see http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...=multi+monitor ). several people tried to edit the CoD files to alter the FoV setting directly, but no luck so far. setting the "correct FoV" is however critical to determine how good/bad visibility is currently in CoD. because with most people flying around with incorrect FoV settings, we cant be trying to compensate with a distorted visibility setup, we need to compare what is a "normal" setting in the sim, and then see how this compares to similar real life situations.

zapatista 10-27-2012 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SQB (Post 472047)
Well, I think I've found the problem. There's a gap between the fade out range (where the model of the aircraft disappears) and where the dot comes in. This is why FOV appears to make a difference (which LOD to use is a product of distance and FOV). To change this... setting the LOD to run out to infinity (meshshowlod=1) will do the trick, but you'll kill your computer. If I knew what lines changed things I would make it so the dot appears on any aircraft at any distance, it's still to have it come in at a certain range.

interesting

why dont you try the same observation but with your monitor set to the correct FoV ? (without using the "meshshowlod" hack)

i strongly suspect that "gap" does not exist (but if it does exist, it obviously would be a coding error or absence of the smallest LoD models for ex)

Wolf_Rider 10-28-2012 06:27 AM

What you're missing though, is... when you change the FoV from the "default" setting, you are introducing the distortion you allayed to in your post above your last.
and crikey.. you're sitting 2 foot (60cm) off your screen??

zapatista 10-29-2012 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider (Post 473888)
when you change the FoV from the "default" setting, you are introducing the distortion you allayed to in your post above your last.

no i am not

it is the exact opposite of what you are saying. if i would be using the 70 FoV as "normal default"(with my eyes 60 cm from my 27' screen as i stated earlier), all ingame objects size shrink around 30% for me, making them much harder to spot, track or identify, THAT is a distortion !

if in a flight simulator the purpose is presumably to see all in-game objects in their correct 1:1 sizes compared to what you would see in real life (ie the same as when looking out of a cockpit), in which case you then need to determine what this "normal" view is for your own monitor personal setup first (size monitor, and the distance you have you're eyes from it.

right now the "normal view" (by default 70 FoV right now in CoD), is only "normal" if you have a 30' screen and sit exactly 54.356 centimeter (21.4 inch ) from it. if that same person then briefly uses the zoomed 35 FoV to scan a distant airfield or road, all in-game objects are magnified by 2x (hence much easier to see), but it does so at the cost of introducing tunnel vision. having snap views setup that are more zoomed (35 FoV) or artificially increase peripheral vision (eg the 90 FoV) are useful to briefly use to overcome some of the limitations of sitting behind a monitor in your living room rather then being in a real aircraft, but both induce significant size and object-visibility distortions

just calculate it for your own setup, and see what should be your "normal FoV" for your current setup.

the purpose of raising this in this thread is because only if using a correct "normal" FoV can we determine if in-game "distant object" visibility is roughly correct (compared to similar real life situations), AND if the "invisible zone" (disappearing aircraft) some players complain of is a real problem or some less serious artifact introduced by not using the right FoV.

SlipBall 10-29-2012 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zapatista (Post 474385)
no i am not

it is the exact opposite of what you are saying. if i would be using the 70 FoV as "normal default"(with my eyes 60 cm from my 27' screen as i stated earlier), all ingame objects size shrink around 30% for me, making them much harder to spot, track or identify, THAT is a distortion !

if in a flight simulator the purpose is presumably to see all in-game objects in their correct 1:1 sizes compared to what you would see in real life (ie the same as when looking out of a cockpit), in which case you then need to determine what this "normal" view is for your own monitor personal setup first (size monitor, and the distance you have you're eyes from it.

right now the "normal view" (by default 70 FoV right now in CoD), is only "normal" if you have a 30' screen and sit exactly 54.356 centimeter (21.4 inch ) from it. if that same person then briefly uses the zoomed 35 FoV to scan a distant airfield or road, all in-game objects are magnified by 2x (hence much easier to see), but it does so at the cost of introducing tunnel vision. having snap views setup that are more zoomed (35 FoV) or artificially increase peripheral vision (eg the 90 FoV) are useful to briefly use to overcome some of the limitations of sitting behind a monitor in your living room rather then being in a real aircraft, but both induce significant size and object-visibility distortions

just calculate it for your own setup, and see what should be your "normal FoV" for your current setup.

the purpose of raising this in this thread is because only if using a correct "normal" FoV can we determine if in-game "distant object" visibility is roughly correct (compared to similar real life situations), AND if the "invisible zone" (disappearing aircraft) some players complain of is a real problem or some less serious artifact introduced by not using the right FoV.

zapatista
109 The view that I prefer is to have all of my gauges in view. Is it possible for me to lock that as my normal view?...maybe a config edit?

zapatista 10-29-2012 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlipBall (Post 474396)
zapatista
109 The view that I prefer is to have all of my gauges in view. Is it possible for me to lock that as my normal view?...maybe a config edit?

hiya slipball,

you have several options to keep your instruments in view in the il2 series

1) if you use your "wide" (90 FoV) to achieve that, you have the major problem that everything in the "game world" has shrunk in size (including your cockpit instruments) and distant aircraft and ground objects will be much harder to spot
2) you could tilt your widescreen monitor to 90 degrees, making it taller then wide :) dont laugh, some people actually prefer that view. they have all instruments in view, and their mirror, and have a good visibility of the sky up in front of them. personally i find it disorienting, but it could work if you have 3 monitors setup side by side.
3) you could use a small 2e display to just have a small cluster of the most important instruments displayed, this was possible with a small addon program in the il2 series. eg you could use a tablet pc or similar 7' or 9' screen for that purpose. this is my preferred option, but untill the most recent patch still wasnt possible in CoD. several people requested this feature, but no idea if the last official patch made any changes to enable this (sadly i doubt they included it)
4) you could setup your correct" normal FoV" for your setup (calculated by above method). and use a track-IR to follow your head movement, small brief downward glances to the instruments become fairly intuitive after a while, and not to distracting. this is probably the best current option for most of us.

i think those are the main options i can see for now, other might have more suggestions

my personal ambition for the future is to add 2 smaller 20' monitors on either side of my 27', the amount of pixels they use is roughly similar to adding one extra widescreen (instead of 2, so easier on the GPU and CPU), and the vertical resolution and pixel count is the same as my monitor (1200) so it blends in fairly well. multi monitor setups in CoD are still not perfectly integrated, so still looking at cost effective options myself :)

it would be great to have a small tablet pc with a few instruments displayed, its resolution is relatively low so no major drain on the pc as a 2e display, and the gaming advantage is significant (compared to the limitations of 1 large screen with no instruments in view during dog-fighting for ex)

so with your current setup, what would be your personal "normal FoV" ? i think you'd be amazed at how low the FoV needs to be (and most people dont use that because it gives them a very narrow visual field). it will give you some idea as to how much distant objects and planes shrink in size when you set ti to 70 or 90, and hence why now suddenly they are so much harder to spot for most :)

zapatista 10-29-2012 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlipBall (Post 474396)
zapatista
. Is it possible for me to lock that as my normal view?...maybe a config edit?

one forum member (ataros) suggested that the kegetis mod tool allows you to set a specific FoV (and "lock it"), but i havnt tried it myself yet (and might not be compatible online ?) (see ...http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...=multi+monitor ).

several people tried to edit the CoD files to alter the FoV setting directly, but no luck so far. being able to set specific FoV's at 5 degree steps (as was possible in the il2 series) is afaik not currently possible in CoD, it was a feature requested several times by many people, but i dont think it was included in the final patch.

knowing what your personal "normal" FoV should be in CoD is however important to determine the amount of distortion in object sizes you are creating as a result of using the "wrong FoV" (and for the purpose of this thread to determine game errors).

SlipBall 10-29-2012 02:01 PM

Thanks zapatista! I will experiment with your advice:-)

MadTommy 10-29-2012 02:39 PM

** post removed while i retest this ***

David198502 10-30-2012 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlipBall (Post 474396)
zapatista
109 The view that I prefer is to have all of my gauges in view. Is it possible for me to lock that as my normal view?...maybe a config edit?

simple answer....no

David198502 10-30-2012 07:22 AM

@ zap....

to have the "correct" field of view is a totally different topic...
as long as the devs offer different FOVs in the game, and in some of them, contacts totally disappear in mid ranges, it can and should be seen as a bug...

try 1024x768 for example, and you will see what im talking about...there is no doubt, that that is a bug....it has nothing to do with distortion, but the game just seems to forget to load one LOD model in that resolution.

Wolf_Rider 10-30-2012 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zapatista (Post 474403)

knowing what your personal "normal" FoV should be in CoD is however important to determine the amount of distortion in object sizes you are creating as a result of using the "wrong FoV" (and for the purpose of this thread to determine game errors).

The "distortion" isn't in sizes as such... it is in how the object/ background/ viewpoint (as in origin of view) relate to each other.



Quote:

Originally Posted by zapatista (Post 474385)

no i am not

it is the exact opposite of what you are saying. if i would be using the 70 FoV as "normal default"(with my eyes 60 cm from my 27' screen as i stated earlier), all ingame objects size shrink around 30% for me, making them much harder to spot, track or identify, THAT is a distortion !

Nooo, objects on the screen don't get bigger or smaller when you move your eyes closer to or further away from your screen



Quote:

Originally Posted by zapatista (Post 474385)

if in a flight simulator the purpose is presumably to see all in-game objects in their correct 1:1 sizes compared to what you would see in real life (ie the same as when looking out of a cockpit), in which case you then need to determine what this "normal" view is for your own monitor personal setup first (size monitor, and the distance you have you're eyes from it.

sounds great if everybody wanted to have their head and shoulders strapped down and locked in to one position... unfortunately people will sit at different distances from their screen. Sit too close and the peripheral (RL) vision gets affected, they may find themselves getting dizzy after a while at the screen... too far away and they might squint slightly causing headaches.

How would plan to achieve your desire and have it also suit everybody else?


Quote:

Originally Posted by zapatista (Post 474385)

right now the "normal view" (by default 70 FoV right now in CoD), is only "normal" if you have a 30' screen and sit exactly 54.356 centimeter (21.4 inch ) from it. if that same person then briefly uses the zoomed 35 FoV to scan a distant airfield or road, all in-game objects are magnified by 2x (hence much easier to see), but it does so at the cost of introducing tunnel vision. having snap views setup that are more zoomed (35 FoV) or artificially increase peripheral vision (eg the 90 FoV) are useful to briefly use to overcome some of the limitations of sitting behind a monitor in your living room rather then being in a real aircraft, but both induce significant size and object-visibility distortions

just calculate it for your own setup, and see what should be your "normal FoV" for your current setup.

Normal FoV is the default setting... change from this value and the distortion comes into play... objects aren't "magnified" by changing the FoV - "maginification" is a completely differtent occurence



Quote:

Originally Posted by zapatista (Post 474385)

the purpose of raising this in this thread is because only if using a correct "normal" FoV can we determine if in-game "distant object" visibility is roughly correct (compared to similar real life situations), AND if the "invisible zone" (disappearing aircraft) some players complain of is a real problem or some less serious artifact introduced by not using the right FoV.

and yes, the "disappearing dot" is a bug apparently... one which wasn't there in > il2: 1946

zapatista 10-30-2012 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David198502 (Post 474818)
@ zap....

to have the "correct" field of view is a totally different topic...
as long as the devs offer different FOVs in the game, and in some of them, contacts totally disappear in mid ranges, it can and should be seen as a bug...

try 1024x768 for example, and you will see what im talking about...there is no doubt, that that is a bug....it has nothing to do with distortion, but the game just seems to forget to load one LOD model in that resolution.

david,

the reason i keep mentioning the need to first set the correct "normal" FoV for your personal monitor size and home viewing setup, is that in any of these "visibility bug" discussions we need to start from a known quantity with most in-game parameters set to represent as closely as possible a similar real life situation.

since that "normal FoV" setup is slightly different for most posters here, at least we will then be comparing apples with apples

as you could see from the earlier tracks slipball posted, some people claimed to have perfectly good visibility of the aircraft on the ground 1200 meters below, but then it was found they were using the zoomed 35 view which is like strapping on some binoculars. others were still able to see the same distant aircraft in the wide view, yet some couldnt see it with a correctly set "normal FoV" for their monitor size.

ie, once we have determined how it behaves under normal visibility conditions then the nest step is to add whatever altered settings can magnify the problem so we can identify its cause more easily

Quote:

Originally Posted by David198502 (Post 474818)
try 1024x768 for example, and you will see what im talking about...there is no doubt, that that is a bug....it has nothing to do with distortion, but the game just seems to forget to load one LOD model in that resolution.

possible, i dont doubt you are seeing some aircraft disappear before your eyes (as an earlier video illustrated very well), my simple question is: is the same problem still present to the same degree when you use the "normal FoV for your personal monitor setup", and secondly is it still as noticeable at your monitor native resolution ?

with you using a non native resolution a couple of things come to mind, for ex you have significantly increased your pixel size, and it is slightly more blurry because the non-native display resolution is not as sharp and crisp. none of that might matter in the bug you mentioned, but we dont know. i just prefer comparing apples with apples, and then progress from there :)

zapatista 10-30-2012 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadTommy (Post 474425)
** post removed while i retest this ***

looked interesting, i could see a difference in the comparison screenshots :)

David198502 10-30-2012 03:32 PM

sorry zapatista, you are wrong, although i appreciate many things you brought up in this thread already...

you said:" the reason i keep mentioning the need to first set the correct "normal" FoV for your personal monitor size and home viewing setup, is that in any of these "visibility bug" discussions we need to start from a known quantity with most in-game parameters set to represent as closely as possible a similar real life situation."

and thats where i have to disagree with you, as this bug seems to be dependent on three different settings:

resolution
FOV
model details

this bug doesnt give a rats ... about "correct" FOV.
you can simply recreate it:

use a resolution of 1024x768
+ FOV 90°
+ medium model details

Roblex 10-30-2012 07:46 PM

Not sure I can use a 'normal' FOV considering I only use the TrackIR 6DOF to change FOV :-)

mazex 10-30-2012 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zapatista (Post 469654)
some possible solutions discussed in previous years:
- make all the smaller LoD models much darker (or a bright blue ?) so they stand out more (instead of sing a paint scheme that aims to represent the real color of the object it represents)
- give the smaller LoD models "3D volume" by using something like bump mapping, so they stand out more against the scenery background
- paint the smaller most distant LoD models in "non realistic" colors so they stand out more (or use some highlighting method around the edge of the shape, as the OP suggests)
- instead of focusing on having distant very small LoD models maintaining the shape of the aircraft they represent (which is done very poorly anyway because our smallest pixels arnt small enough to give that level of detail), use instead a "blob" or fixed larger number of black/grey pixels of some shape that makes the object stand out a bit more and overcome the problem we have of using a 2D screen. once you come closer to it, or use the zoom function, the larger LoD models would still keep the shape of the object of course.

Good proposals all of them. The last one is probably the easiest one to do (like they do in RoF?). It may not be "realistic" - but neither is spotting a few pixels above a landscape of the same "color" :) I have a couple of hundred hours IRL stick time at least, and aircraft in the air are actually easier to spot than many may think, if you manage to spot them first at least ;)

raaaid 10-31-2012 01:31 AM

I HAD THIS PROBLEM REAL BAD BETWEEN 1 AND 2 KM PLAENS WER TOTALLY INVISIBLE

SOLVED IT SETTING TEXTURES TO ORIGINAL AND MODELS TO HIGH WHICH I CAN EVEN RUN IN MY POOR SYSTEM

sorry about the caps but this solved it for me so should solve it for the rest

David198502 10-31-2012 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raaaid (Post 475367)
I HAD THIS PROBLEM REAL BAD BETWEEN 1 AND 2 KM PLAENS WER TOTALLY INVISIBLE

SOLVED IT SETTING TEXTURES TO ORIGINAL AND MODELS TO HIGH WHICH I CAN EVEN RUN IN MY POOR SYSTEM

sorry about the caps but this solved it for me so should solve it for the rest

i assume you use native resolution?

Redroach 10-31-2012 02:07 PM

So... whats the fix now? I run monitor-native resolution 1920*1080, Textures original and Models High and I've got massive problems :(

Pegasus_Eagle 10-31-2012 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raaaid (Post 475367)
I HAD THIS PROBLEM REAL BAD BETWEEN 1 AND 2 KM PLAENS WER TOTALLY INVISIBLE

SOLVED IT SETTING TEXTURES TO ORIGINAL AND MODELS TO HIGH WHICH I CAN EVEN RUN IN MY POOR SYSTEM

sorry about the caps but this solved it for me so should solve it for the rest

i think i will give that a try

ty raaaid S!

raaaid 10-31-2012 06:40 PM

i run the game at 640*480 i just tweaked those two things which solved plane invisibilty between one and two km

also have on high the efects and get 50-60 fps inside the cockpit and 80 outside, all other things have it on minimum, shadows for example half my fps

if i chage res to 800*600 i get 25 fps which i dont like

in fact the game is updating itself quite often, i have proofs

i guess they are doing secret minifixes patches with the advantage of improving the game without the anoyance of people in forums wanting this and that and the moon

Redroach 11-01-2012 09:59 AM

mhh while musing around about this problem, I've got another Idea, because of my visibility problems:
I've switched off the ingame-AA (I thought people said it doesn't do much anyways), as well as shadows (!)
Could that play a part? Sorry, I can't actually test that right now because of *some* other problems :)

raaaid 11-01-2012 06:29 PM

well after playing again i noticed my method doesnt solved it totally but improve it, i will keep tweaking to see

edit:

i think i know why yesterday the problem was solved and now not so well, i tweaked my gpu, it has to be on let aplication decide, testing now

edit:
nope didnt totally solve it in certain positions planes keep being invisible between one and 2 km

zapatista 11-04-2012 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roblex (Post 475171)
Not sure I can use a 'normal' FOV considering I only use the TrackIR 6DOF to change FOV :-)

hiya Roblex,

using track IR is no problem at all (if you use its main 6DoF feature as intended)

first you set your "correct FoV" (as stated earlier in this thread), then with the 6DoF of the track-ir you can turn your "in-game head" left right and in all directions while the same FoV setting is maintained all the time. instead of using a mouse of Kb keys to look around, you simply turn your head.

and you have the extra benefit with the track-ir 6DoF that when you lean forwards to have a closer look at some of the cockpit instruments they magnify in size and are easier to read (because your eyes are now significantly closer to them), but during the same movement the distant aircraft LoD models and Dots you see in the distance do not change in size because you leaning 20 cm closer to the screen (being equal movement of leaning roughly 20 cm forward in the cockpit) is an insignificant change in distance compared to looking at a 1 cm wide LoD model representing a ME109 about 1 km away for ex. and that is exactly how it would work in real life, and is the purpose of having a correctly implemented 6DoF in a game

Wolf_Rider 11-04-2012 04:45 AM

The gauges don't get magnified though... the FoV changes, which affects the depth of field


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