http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/raaaid/st8.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/raaaid/st7.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/raaaid/st6.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/raaaid/st5.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/raaaid/st4.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/raaaid/st3.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/raaaid/st2.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/raaaid/st1.jpg

If you were a real engineer you would know that you can't just extrapolate a data set to suit your needs.

You could be right but you can't tell from that graph. It STOPS at 4000 grams. Therefore, according to that graph, the displacement STOPS at about 1.7mm. If you can find something that states the full deflection value of the Cougar mod then feel free to post it.

Not that it matters b/c a 9kg force would result in approximately 4mm of deflection per your graph. As a real engineer shouldn't you know that?

Here's something that's interesting from that site...

Feel free to explain what those numbers mean and how they fit into your claims.


Of course, once again, it's all moot because you fail to understand anything (as usual).

So, why won't you address my individual comments instead of just spouting the same thing over and over? Why won't you take the time to think about what I've posted?

Specifically...

and here's another one...

Your graph does NOT show CONTROL INPUT versus stick force. It shows DEFLECTION versus stick force. The SOFTWARE determines control input. The software can ignore ALL THE INPUT if so desired. You can hang a car off that freaking stick and if the software decides to ignore it, then it's ignored.

Oh wait, I just remembered, you're not here to learn or discuss anything. You're here just to go back and reread your same statements over and over.


--Outlaw.

thats irrelevnt

my original point is that a short run is an advnatge to pilot and the air wolrd apply it and the racing world doesnt

besides i know it by experience since in every racing game i gain two seconds going with 40º of lock insteead of 400º as mostly everybody does

the force IS the imput

and that graph shows the center WITH NO DEAD ZONE

Screenshots?
Seriously?

You should consider putting them into your CV...

i dont want to give my real name in case a future employer searches me

if someone searched my name he would just find top research on maths from my dad :)

thats why i can tell what i think here but not in real life

You really think McDonalds does a background checks on patty flippers?

What is irrelevant? Why do you refuse to be specific?

The relationship between your original point and your, "assinine BS" as you put it, is irrelevant to me because I never disputed your original point.

Since you bring it up though...

Are you seriously stating that the only thing an F-16 pilot needs from his aircraft is to ride the limit and that precision means nothing?


It's funny that you continue to ignore my specific posts.

You are clueless. The force is the input TO THE STICK, but, NOT THE CONTROL SURFACES. The COMPUTER decides how to move the control surfaces REGARDLESS of the stick position.

It shows no PHYSICAL dead zone which means NOTHING when there is a computer sitting between the stick and the control surfaces.

Here's an example you may be able to wrap your head around...

If I start my car and floor the gas with the shifter in neutral, the engine should blow up very quickly from over revving. However, the computer WILL NOT LET THAT HAPPEN. At 6200 rpm it kills the ignition, thus preventing engine damage.

So, NO MATTER WHAT MY FOOT IS DOING ON THE GAS, the computer will not let the engine over rev. In this case, my gas pedal has a 100% dead zone.

Now, when I get the upgrade for my car which has "no-lift shift" (to keep the turbo charger up to speed during shifts), when I press the clutch to shift I WILL NOT HAVE TO TAKE MY FOOT OF THE GAS. The computer measures the position of the clutch and reduces throttle while the clutch pedal is depressed and then gradually increases the throttle back to 100% as I release the clutch pedal.

In both cases, the COMPUTER is deciding how much "dead zone" is in the gas pedal and has COMPLETE control of what the engine is doing. Just like the stick in the F-16.

--Outlaw.

you bring to many points, most irrelevant

we are discussing if the f16 stick has a 6mm dead zone

i call that bs, dont you agree?

so you agree with my original point of short run being an adavantage and the airworld using it, cool

well by making this thread i learnt you can have avery short run with the advanatges it brings and you can still have high precision by settin a gradual force damping

at least you make points not like the others out reasoned just can resource to personal attacks

taking into account the imput is the force that graph shows beyond discussion not apreciable dead zone

Why are they irrelevant? You are the one posting a link to a GAME controller and then claiming that it is an EXACT DUPLICATE of the stick as installed in the F-16 Viper.

It is so obvious that it's NOT the same as the F-16 stick that I can't even begin to think of any living entity (including single celled animals, plants, bits of random RNA, etc.) that could not understand such.


Then why did you bring this up...

Which is it, the 6mm dead zone or your, "original point"?


How could you possibly ask that question? I've CLEARLY stated my position multiple times. Really, how is it possible to misunderstand me?

How much weed have you smoked today?


Where did I state that I agreed with your original point? How is it possible to get a degree related to the English language without being able to understand English?

First, the "advantages" you speak ARE NOT REAL AND DO NOT EXIST. However, if you assume that they do exist, IF YOU DAMP THE SIGNAL then you have lost the (nonexistent) "advantages".

You have not, "out reasoned", anyone. All of your statement have been decimated by everyone posting in this thread. This includes those that didn't even relate to your original post.


As I have said, SO WHAT? Why won't you respond to my posts where I CLEARLY state why that is irrelevant?

--Outlaw.

I wake up every morning to read what's going on.
This chit rocks with a coffe and a smoke.

S!

Haha, this is still going :)

Why don't you setup the curves in your yoistick so that you have 10 times less travel than anybody else and fly with that.
And when you beat everyone in a dogfight, formation flying, take-off, landing and taxiing,
we can all agree that you're right and we're wrong.

Oh and, then fly a real life plane setup so that it has 10 times less demanding input, like an F16 with 2-3 pounds of max fore required, or an F-18 with 5cm of travel.

Haha, I'm trying that tomorrow!

and I don't even smoke. or drink coffee.

i made the point a short run is an advantage like the f16

fjord monkey as an f16 mechanic dismmissed it saying the whole run is dead band

bs

capici?

Capisce, but Fjord is right. There is no way you could control any aircraft with a joystick movement of 6mm total. As we've said before (ad infinitum it seems) the movement of the stick is "dead" in that the stick movement does not affect the control surfaces.

Go onto dedicated F16 forums to ask the question or make this argument. I think from now I'll just mime patting you on the head and saying "There there little troll, whatever you say...." You really are only worth ridiculing. Sad that.

Hood

Do you have a joystick? Do you have COD?

Where's the problem, why all this debate. Come on, lets set it up so that it has 6mm of travel and let's see how you do. Take off, formation flying, some aerobatics, dog fighting and landing. And if you can do that with 6mm of travel on your joystick, and do it better than a person with a regular joystick, or even better a person with a center mounted long travel stick,

every single one of us that disagreed with you will rite you a personal apology.

those 6 mm are damped with a strong gradual force so six mm its plenty enough

if you prefer the other version that the six mm is lose run ...

and then how much sense does have saying those six mm is to small for an imput and say as well all the input is in a zero run after the dead zone

for your info 0 minor than six

Somebody decipher the last one please.

So what now, are you saying you need both small travel AND force sensing ?
Cause you never said anything about force sensing.
Just that small travel is better.

i said since the begining i race with a small run and some force damping

you want proof my 40º lock on steering the wheel for 33º in the front wheel is efective?

here:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...aid/record.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/raaaid/1.jpg

No.

The thread title is " the air forces know the secret for uber piloting the sports world doesnt", so the main matter is obviously aviation.

nope the subject is the secret for uber piloting and thats a short run

so short in some cases as the f16 6 mm run

check out the original post:

i have several world record racing online and i feel like i cheated because i do something that i dont know nobody else does it

most people use in their joystick wheel 400º of lock, i use 40º

i texted extensively and in any racing game theres at least two seconds difference between both set ups i get

think about it wwi fighters sticks had a run like 50 cm modern fighter joystick run is like 5 cm

what i dont understand is why real racers dont use high sensitivity

OK, so we agree. Aviation is the subject here, we'll get to cars later.
Let's first test your claim about military aviation.

Setup your joystick to 6mm of travel, via the calibration curves, and the rest of us setup a regular travel joystick and we'll see who can fly the plane better in all conditions, dogfight, takeoff/landing, formation flying...
We can even use a real hardcore simulator, like the DCS: P-51D mustang, since you're talking about real life scenarios here.

ive already done it with my g25 wheel and set several world records, you need force damping for that short run and only my wheel has force feeback not my joystick

Yes, and I'll take your word for it, but let's leave cars and steering wheels for now.

So, you're now saying that you need both short run AND force feedback?
So if you had like, a logitech G940 or an MFFSB than you could do it?

They do!
All racing cars have more sensitive (or a lower steering ratio) than 'normal' road cars...

However the real racers have to deal with G-force, uneven roads, fatigue and, most importantly the possiblity of a very quick death should they mess it up..

There has to be a balance between sensitivity and safety. This is the point that your missing. You're not going to die because your PC racing wheel is too sensitive when the guy in front of you spins out and you react and crash.
Understeer and oversteer would be a nightmare to control, and god help you if you get a blow out on one of the front wheels at 200mph..

In an F-16 if you try and do something that would get you dead then the computer will just stop it happening. That's the pay off for such a highly sensitive stick.. you're not really in control, the plane is.

Fighter pilots have to deal with the same forces a racing driver does,and then some. Do you think it would be easy to make very small movements of your arm whilst being bounced around all over the sky in a purley mechanical WWII fighter with a tiny stick travel?

You're simply ignoring the saftey factor in this because you're basing you point on computer games, sitting at a desk.

Do you have a driver's license?

When will you guys realise he is a troll!!!

There just cannot be someone that is REALLY this DIM out there...

exactly concretely not force feedback but centering force damping, besides contrary to wheels, joysticks have a quite short run already

yeah winny i agree with you i think the reason real racers dont use still a shorter run is safety reasons well spotted

i think the pilots who use the shorter run are rally ones

i have a license for any bike and any car

i had two bikes and now use my dads car in a very safety manner

Raaid is raaaaid, take him or leave him. I've never seen him lose his temper, I've learnt a lot of useless info from reading his threads by trying to counter them. I don't see him as a problem.

What actually amazes me is how cruel people can be to what is essentially an easy target. But if bullying the special needs kids at school was your thing then carry on. The guy bought CloD so he's as much right as anyone to be here.

Personally I find the constant rehashing od the same old complaints over in the main forum more annoying than a completley harmless, if rather confusing Raaaid thread.

His English is worse than mine but apparently he has a degree in it, he claims to be an engineer but constantly tries to prove even the most basic things wrong, look at this thread its a perfect example.. He could not be more wrong and evidence has been shown that shows he is utterly incorrect but he refuses to even listen.. Therefore I believe he is having a laugh with some mates in another forum at your guys expense or he is incredibly arrogant!!?!!

so you still believe the 6 mm run are dead zone? if not the short run advantage is proved

youre so thick, proof it or shut up

and how do you dare to call me lier after having posted all subjects i passed in college, from latin to steam engines

edit:

why dont you get raceroom an steam free game and prove me wrong by driving with 400º run when i admit i got the record only for going with 40º and beat some of my 3 records in that masive free game

then you can talk by now its me and not you whos doing the uber piloting

ill resume this thread:

i claim i feel cheating getting world records racing cause i use 40º run while everybody uses over 200º

i back this up by the f16 having 6mm run

an expert comes and says the 6 mm run of the f16 is DEAD ZONE

i call this bs

everybody gets on me insulting me calling me idiot pathetic moron troll, this stresses me and i start saying deliring things about borgs

i back it up with a graph of a joystick of an f16 replica which shows no death zone at all

peeople keep trolling with personal attacks in fact even when realizing i was right they wont admit it but winny whose reasonable and admits the short run advantage and explains its not used as me to the extreme in the racing world for safety reasons which i share now


...

Yes it might work on a racing game but its nothing like flying and especially nothing like dogfighting where precise aiming is key...

Take one obvious example, Airbus and Boeing.

Airbus use a sidestick and Boeing a conventional yoke.

Airbus uses a fly-by-wire system and a sidestick as the aircraft adheres to a strict flight envelope that is set within the flight limits of that particular aircraft. The pilot has limited control of the aircraft and in theory cannot endanger the crew and passengers by making the aircraft perform a maneuver that would otherwise lead to a stall or over loading and failure of the structure.

Boeing also a fly-by-wire system but they use a yoke. Now the reason that they use a centre stick is because unlike the Airbus aircraft even though they have a flight envelope the pilot IS in control of the aircraft and can make the aircraft perform maneuvers that could lead to a stall etc...

Which aircraft do most pilots prefer... Boeing obviously, they are in complete control if they need to not the flight computer.

Now obviously passengers jets and yokes can't be compared to centre sticks and side sticks in a fighter aircraft so case two, modern fighter jets...

Yes the current trend is sidesticks, but there is a very very simple reason for this. The design, modern military jets are designed to be EXTREMELY unstable and are kept in the sky by the computer not by the pilot, the modern pilots fly by the instruments in front of him and a centre stick is intrusive so that's one benefit of a sidestick.

So there you have it, nothing to do with how sensitivity or precision... the reason that modern jets use side stick is that in reality modern pilots do not have complete control over the aircraft the COMPUTER does.

Find me a military fighter aircraft that does not use fly-by-wire and has a side stick please.

@Winny, I hope you found that interesting :D

You see.....this is why people tell you to leave this place, why should everybody just accept and agree with everything you say just because you are a bit 'special' in the head? if you find it all too stressful and it makes you go into delerium then all the people advising you to leave for the good of your health are right.

Thanks and apologies if the bullying special needs kids comment felt like it was aimed at you. It wasn't.

well there are two things for seinsitivity, should never had used that word

the shorter the run the higher the sensitibity( and the faster you can countersteer a stall in a plane or a spin in a car which is run dependant not sensitivity)

the stronger the centering force damping the lower the sensitivity

so its posible to have a short run whith all its advanatages witha very strong force damping which will lower the sensitivity as much as needed for formation ultraprecise flying

in fact the f16 stick design is much better than anything i tried in my g25 wheel, and i say that as quite an experten on virtual racing

anyone being called a moron pathetic idiot troll gets stressed, specially when talking the truth and revealing a secret for virtual racings

how about if the mods took me as reference to turn this place alike the ubizoo where people would talk of their things as old friends with a very nice atmosphere

if someone is ultra mean to me a totally harmless guy maybe he shouldnt deserve the right to be among a bunch of nice guys all over the world with an agaisnt the stream interest on pilloting and flying

In other words you did not read or did not understand my post, fantastic what's point creating a discussion if you don't listen to others.

@winny, no problem :)

i understood it but youre not dismissing my point of the shorter run being better, youre just giving away your info on the subject but not taking into account my new info

this is the ot really theres no need to take it to the air world

my simple TRUE POINT:

i got several world records RACING in masive games by my using extremely short runs, had i used a normal run i would be two second slower

now people who race and maybe interested in my extreme setup should ask me about the force feedback setting i use

people who wish to troll will troll with mostly non related info

Thanks for proving again that you either did not read or understand what I posted, TROLL!

i dont need ignore list, i have a mental list of haters whose opinion i take reversed, normally these guys have swastikas in their sigs, oh the subcouncios stream of thought, being insulted by them is equivalent to being praised by a nice guy

hey that 109 nose art of your signature is your avatar

thats how you portrait yourself?

as a nationalist fighter beated but still surviving?

And I classic sign that the other person is correct Raaaid now changes his topic, nice touch calling me a nazi btw "OMG"...

@sig, I am british so you can't call me a nationalist when I fly blue aircraft LOL and I fly blue as I am a huge fan of the 109 and 190 purely from an engineering perspective... that is all.

You do realise that the people standing by the aircraft are actually british soldiers who captured the aircraft...

@Winny I blame you for this ;) :P I long made it my aim not to discuss anything with Raaaid!

Come on Raaaid, pulling the Nazi card out is a little extreme. This is a WWII flight sim forum after all. Not everyone who flys 109's is a Nazi, no doubt there are probably the odd one or two but the massive majority are just aviation enthusiasts, 109's are nice birds (not as nice as Spittys ;P).

Also I think that you should take into account the fact that some of your posts are very hard to understand because of the dodgy translations.

And don't get stressed because somebody on the internet thinks you're wrong. Life's too short.

The same point I made about saftey in racing cars applies to aircraft too.
Too sensitive will get you dead very quickly. The F16's a bad example to use because it's all about pressure not movement. You'd be better off researching actual WW2 aircraft and the ammount of stick travel in each.
I think you'll find that they were made the way they were for lot's of different reasons, safety, precission, technical limitations of the time etc etc

It's not all about how quickly you can get the stick from one side to the other.

well i apologize for calling you a nationalist i was on the hating mood for your despice to me, sorry again wont do it again

well going on on my secret for racing ultrafast:

apart from extrem short runs: my favourite is that one in which the steering wheel and front wheel have 1:1 ratio

then i use not force centering damping for it keeps me from detecting the wheel lighter by understeering

but i use the maximum force feedback just as strong as when you dont touch the wheel it oscilates but when you hold it it stops, ive seen real f1 wheels doing this

Guilty as charged, I'm dissapointed that he's now pulling the Nazi/Facist card.

Your dissapointed I am in shock :shock:, But I shouldn't be when he is wrong and realizes it rather than accepting it he tries to smear a persons reputation... (not that I have one these boards ;) ) but this is way way way below the belt, must have hurt him to be JUST SO WRONG!!

It's not all bad - I'm probably the worlds leading authority on 'Dippy Birds' thanks to Raaaid.

(if you missed that thread this will probably go straight over your head.. It was epic)

I saw that, that one made me laugh so hard I cried :D

i apologized


the main point discussed is a short run is an adavantage, is agreed is not taken to the extremes for safety reasons

do you agree with that?

the secondary point is that the 6 mm run of the f16 stick is dead zone

do you agree with that?

what youre doing is giving unecesary info to the two points and complicatin things

myself when calling to the point you call me troll, i lost my nerves and fell on that internet law, sorry again i lost my nerves

Let me reiterate...

Why are you refusing to respond to my comment...


--Outlaw.

Of course, none of that is relevant BECAUSE AS I SAID BEFORE, THE END OF TRAVEL DOES NOT MEAN THE END OF INPUT. Force sticks, even if they are slightly sprung for a small range of travel, can measure input AFTER travel has stopped

this graph proves you wrong:

force and displacement are linearly related, do i have to explain farter?

http://www.realsimulator.com/assets/...-force-300.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgCwyHr7Fzs

Raaid....

Really, I could have tackled you several times.... Destroyed you. However I realise you are mental and vunerable. Attacking you is like clubbing a baby seal. Quite often aswell, cos you are so wrong, a 14 year old studying GCSE Science (a bit like you diploma's which you think are Degrees) could actually prove you wrong....


O and look you just became a statistic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law


I actually didnt mind you making your ridiculous posts in the pilots lounge, even though I did originally, however you have just proved you are a total fool and will stoop to any argument to win! If you believe it or not. I really cant believe how much you talk about "everyone living in harmony" and now you call some one a Nationalist because you think its a "get out of a losing argument clause" as that person prefers blue aircraft, or flys in a blue squadron...

You just called everyone that flies blue a nazi in my book.

Actually this post makes you look a total fool:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=34145


Assuming a picture is someones political beliefs.... What does this make me?

Also I would like to add with your degree in English, you see I have not missed aline between each sentence? - this is called a PARAGRAPH....

Just to prove Im right here is TWO better videos of Bruce Lee actually doing something real...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PLBXAcKyDw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-2gEx0n_MA

Yea it was used for an advert but I cant find a better one... Its hardly my fault that popular images are used by entertainment...

well godwings law doesnt apply when the person in question has an swastika in his signature and a german wwii squad as avatar if he feels like calling me a troll not keeping to the point where i point his faults but not wanting to unpleased winny i apologized

you know why so many people cant stand me

cause they cant afford my honesty

noway this guy tellings the truth is there anyone who does today?

edit:

oh if i had a recording of myself cutting a flying fly in half with a blade in MY ONLY TRY EVER, i bet people doesnt believe me :(

thats the chi, i made the fly fly to the blade while trowing the blade randomly

No it applies to you... Why are you calling all blue flyers Nationalists? Nothing else you wrote made sense... So cannot be answered...

i fly blue as im suspicious in a past life i was a 109 pilot thing i get from my dreams

i find it applyable to people with swastikas in his sigs

as a matter of fact im not sure if here but i recall this is agaisnt the rules

No, you just out of your tiny mind... :-P

i totally agree with that so what

a short run is an advantage

the whole 6mm run of the f16 sidestick being dead band its bs

:idea:

Ok but I dont understand what your saying? Apart from when you called everyone on this forum a NAZI... :(

i didnt, fed up of being insulted at the tenth guy insukting me i noticed his swastika in the sig, against the rules as all tthe personal attacks going on

you cant expect keep insulting a guy out of reason with out a reaction

Krupi's signiture is a historical photograph, you cant airbrush history... You cant call everyone a nazi because they dont dont agree with you... You seek the "truth" yet you deny historical fact!



You cant call everyone a nazi cos they fly blue aircraft! What about everyone elses feelings!? Why dont you have the love and compassion for other people you preach so much about?

You are wrong,wrong,wrong... ;)


If you promoted your cause with "I found this better to this specific case" - you would have infinatley more credability! <3

yes well you cant blame it for losing my nerves ive been call all kind of things for exposing:

a short run is an advantage to piloting

the 6mm run of the f16 stick being dead zone its bs

It is truly is amazing that you persist in your delusions.

There there little troll, you're completely right.

Hood

well my intuition was right about the whole 6 mmm run being dead zone being uttr bs

its easy to be anyone on the net

actually im in the dark side of the moon

actually the sun shines here the naming it dark its because here we live in a future like wolrd where the best minds of earth whose find something forbiden has been taken to

i patented a mechanical antigravity vortex and next day the patent got published i woke up here

i dont know if this will get filtred but it may due to my rep

there are urban legends of people being killed for discovering water engines and such, thats not true they are taling to luna marte and andromeda colonies in case something goes bad on earth

actually f16 sidestick controls are copied from flying turtles, theyre really old, though f16 lack the force feedback the turtles have and those controls are my litle cheat to pilot online against earthlings

double the dosage

well if youre so gullible to believe fjord monkey is an f16 manager after his claim the whole 6 mm run is dead zone you may believe any bs

haha this is a funny one youre trying to lead me into a nervous breakdown

your doing it in group but you tacitely agreed to

how does it feel being a bad person?