Well you certainly didn't just miss it. This honestly staggers me. I can understand missing development deadlines and coming across unexpected stumbling blocks but why break a promise that you didn't even need to make in the first place?

It seems to be a recurring theme: tell us something we want to hear to achieve immediate diffusion of forum tension but completely fail to follow up. Of course, this only results in long term resentment and deep distrust that will be remembered for years.

I just can't understand this approach. And I know for sure I would get fired for trying something similar on my clients!

Despite others thinking different I do honestly understand that he may have not been expecting so many questions, that said it would have taken 10 seconds to say sorry guys too many questions to go through tonight I will answer them next week, thats all it takes IMHO.

As Tree says, I can understand that there were so many questions (what did they really expect from a disgruntled customer base?), but surely a quick
'Sorry peeps, so many Q's to go through it will be xxxxday before we can answer' would have placated the masses?

Which is fine as long as all the findings are fixed BEFORE the sim is abandoned,that will be something we hope will happen otherwise you are left with a BETA game.

Sure. I don't even particularly care what the answers are (apart from SLI) since I think future progression is already clear: one more patch and probably a sequel.

I just can't understand Luthier's approach unless he simply doesn't view this forum as being at all important (very possible). But even then, why antagonise the situation? It isn't logical.

I know what you mean. It's more that it's so indicative of his way of half doing things. Sad to say, but I think the series deserves a better project leader than that.

As noted above above, even the simplest statement of intent turns into a mini-fiasco (for example, answering questions).

It is the mis-match between reality and spiel that is the most jarring, and it's still ongoing. No real comprehension or sense of the scale of the disappointment/disaster, just a quick nod and move quickly along to the next luke-warm hype statement. People cna deal with less-than-perfect, or even rubbish, if the people producing it are candid.

There appears to be very little coherence from one week to the next, and certainly no sense of structured project management. I get the impression of lurching from one mini-crisis to the next. A Readme for a beta patch?...another eddying mini drama all of its own.

You do wonder if there is enough competency at certain levels to put air in the tyres of an average family saloon car. And even then you'd want to check the pressure is what they say it is. And if it was done at all.

When the minor stuff seems such a struggle, no wonder the major stuff doesn't get a look-in (i.e. game-play, a BoB, weather etc)

I'm left with a sense of 'their-own-worst-enemies'. The level of self-harm inflicted seems immense and growing all the time...

Agree. This just someone who doesn't give a care anymore. It is work of a couple of hours (most of which I assume B6 does) to group and answer the questions - when you group there are probably only about 10 or 15 most asked ones.

I think maybe he was surprised (even for this project) how annoyed people were about his news and knows no matter what is said now, there is no going back. The team clear lacks self awareness saying 'no doubt you will agree we have supported this game more than any other developer would'. So if he actually read the feedback, it might shake his self image a bit, also because the feedback was identical here, on simhq and on sukhoi - 10% people positive, 20% don't care, 70% annoyed.

I keep checking to see if answers are posted, now it is three days instead of 'tonight'.

So the new question is: when are you going to answer the questions!!

To be honest I don't think Luthier has a lot of questions to answer..I mean, put all the questions together and they amount to just one thing - Will the game be fixed in the next patch? My worst fear is that they release another patch that creates more problems then it solves. I think they should get the team that is working on the sequel this time and get them to beta test it instead of relying on their customers to do it for them, I didn't buy into this game to become a beta tester and it's about time they did something right for a change.

So true. Exactly what I'm thinking.

I agree Tree, that is really what is missing most on these forums, and I am not sure if its difference in cultures, or languages, but some common courtesies for customers are lacking somewhat.

Giving a time to expect something on an internet forum is a formula for disaster. He should have played that one a little safer, like, I will answer those questions sometime between tonight and 2013 :)

My response gives him a cushion of between now and Dec 31 2013 :)

Many of the "questions" were just thinly disguised insults. That might be a factor in the slow response.

That is a good point too... people trying to get shots in, he has been away from the forums for awhile, while I find it hard to believe he hasnt peeked in here its possible he hadnt seen how jaded the forum has become... he might be in the fetal position on the floor of his apartment cuddling a pillow pet right now...

The questions are easy to see, ditto with the insults.

It's just appears to show the usual contempt the paying customer is held in today.

He is the head of the company developing this game and he can't answer the questions that have been asked over and over.
If you went into a factory to talk to someone high up i would expect that person to be able to answer the most asked questions off the top of there head.
2 or 3 people sorting the wheat from the chaff on the questions thread would'nt take more than a couple of hours and between them they SHOULD know the answers.
If they were getting ready to put the final patch onto it then surely they must know what's in it - - don't they??
If the patch does'nt repair this beta sim then it remains a beta sim.

From what I have seen on this forum the contempt is well deserved.

Well...you reap what you sow, David.

Yes, you do. Who do you think is going to produce a good WW2 flight sim if you force this team out of business?

David Hayward said:

(I'll bite, since I forgot to log-in and so Ignore not working...)

Absolutely. You may want to consider in which direction, and who the recipient is.

As are many, if not all, of the reactive 'commentariat' remarks.

This forum has many different levels of insult, from the carefully deployed and implied, to the overt. The high-ground is great, but the game itself occupies the low ground. Lording it over such a disaster is never going to work. It would onyl work if the game invited high praise and a uniform respect - it doesn't, sadly.

.

kristorf seems to think the contempt it directed at you. I tend to agree with him, and I think it's deserved.

Eagle Dynamics perhaps?

You couldn't mean me? I bought (into) it on April 16, 2011, 3 months before
the U.S. release and two days after I joined this forum.

Pretty tough to force anybody to do anything on the interweb.
Proof of that? The last 18 months here. Waiting. :)

Why haven't they done it?

18 months of complaining and insults. Eventually I would expect them to reconsider their dedication to producing a game for people who have nothing but contempt for them.

Bongodriver said:

Paranoia and/or flattering yourself?

I dont recall reporting your posts recently...I think the last I reported were Ace-of-Aces...?

But you do have a point. To me your name is a guarantee of quality in the crap-stirring department, hence why I usually have you and the other usual suspects on Ignore.

But gettingin to a spat with you...as you would no doubt like...that way madness lies...

Sorry, back on Ignore....

I just knew your ignorance was selective....

That's called taking care of business.
Or, business taking a turn.

Which it has.

This ain't a marriage...it's a deal.
Apparently, maybe, a deal breaker.
We'll all know, by the end of the day.

I hoping for a positive outlook.
You?

Enough with the personal insults to each other or this thread is history and some of you will be on holiday.
Take it to PM if you want to continue your personal spats with each other.

I doubt the patch is going to be ready by the end of the day.

That's news to me, thanks for telling me..........

It is/was pointed towards 1C/MG and other companies in general, not forum users, but I suppose I can change my mind following your post fella

Yes, it was directed at 1C. You seem to think that they have contempt for you (aka, the paying customer).

That would depend on your definition of abandoned. We have no idea how many things will be fixed in COD before the release of the Sequel. IF you only plan to buy COD and never any of the Sequels, you will have a version of the game very few people will have. There is little hope they will support that version after the Sequels released. If the Sequel is successful, there will be continual support for the latest versions from the developer and community modders, and COD will only get better. Although its possible community modders could support the standalone COD, but its highly unlikely there will be enough of the community using that version.

David,

OK, just that it appeared your post quoted me with ne referance to what your comment was aimed at, just confuddled me a tad...

I've got to say, this forum is a very strange environment for a 'company' forum.

The fact that most active participants are largely people who seem to hate the game, hate the developers and look for every opportunity to attack them makes it no surprise that Luthier doesn't post here very often.

'Freedom of speech' is a human right but it is not a private company forum right. If that is the rationale for allowing these boards to have become such a negative place than it is surely misguided.

Of course Luthier shouldn't say I will reply on Friday and then disappear. But communications here are poisoned because of the reason above.

You're right about the poision but I think it's a lot more complicated than that, and much could be cured not only by the devs fixing various elements, but fixing the line sof communication. Taking them seriously, for example. No, they dont owe anyone a living, but they do have a lot of ground to make up if the y want to sell more games IMO. If they dont, then I'd suggest they carry on as they have been.

Any Word on the Questions?
 

Wondered if the answers were still pending?

Or has Luthier been swamped by the sheer volume and number and decided he has more important things to do?

Or are they being prepared for this Friday?

Or do we have to keep guessing and speculating as to what is going on with this as we have done for the previous 18 months.

Thanks.
A disgruntled customer.

They dont work weekends....oh wait....

I didn't realize all the answers would magically be done when they got to work Monday morning. My best guess... they'll have something done this week and post it as the Friday update.

Hope so Chivas. Would be nice to get confirmation...of something...anything...?

Friday update coming? Oh that's great. Can't wait to download the new patch for this awesome sim.

I agree, but I really don't think they knew what was going to happen, and what they could say about it. I know if I worked for the development that took this long to produce a revenue stream, I would be surprised everyday I showed up to work that the development wasn't shut down. I'm sure many people have, but I certainly wouldn't want to work every day under that kind of pressure .
That said I think the development has turned a corner with the stability patch, and seem to have some assurances of financial support atleast until the Sequel's release. Hence the appearance of Luthier.

You guys talking about how they don't work weekends forgot about this quote, yeah?

Pretty standard for 1C lately. Over-promise, under-deliver.

Do we have to wait months for the answers like we're still waiting for the freaking README?

I really would have thought that the result of Luthier offering to answer questions after not being around for a few months would have been predictable.

That's not to underestimate the amount of time needed to wade through those 15 or whatever pages and write up answers...but that then leads to 'what could they say about it?', and that's simple really - "sorry guys, this is going to take a little time. We'll get back to you next week".

It's really a matter of common courtesy and common sense on this one.

I'm almost (but not quite ;) ) past caring to be honest, but it's just really crap public relations. They just never seem to learn.

I keep trying to give them the benefit of the doubt and hold in there, but they keep pointing that shotgun at their own feet and pulling the trigger.

Also, I'm not looking for apologies or whinging about paying £50 for the collector's edition or threatening not to buy the sequel (who am I kidding?) - I would just like them - for once - to do what they say they are going to do dammit! Especially on something that Luthier set up himself without any need or prompting from anyone else!!!!!

And yes, I have had a few 'ales' ;)

To be fair there were a lot of questions, we could of helped Luthier by asking the question and then giving a multi choice answer. Something like this:

Question: Will SLI ever work?

1. Maybe No
2. Maybe Yes
3. Maybe not now but maybe not in BOM
4. It is our highest and lowest priority
5. Brown

Ken, you have to be fizzin joking. Haven't you seen enough of these threads already?

What we've got, we've got. What we're going to get is anybody's guess.

All contributors to this thread should get online and kill some Hun. It doesn't really matter whether it's in Cliffs of Dover or Rise of Flight. Just stop posting shite on the forums, fly some aeroplanes and have some fun.

Alternatively, kill some Tommies. I don't bloody care. Just play the game (s).

Hic.....

Has B6 said anything by way of explanation? He seems to have gone to ground on the subject too. :confused:

Agree. It makes it seem like they don't care whether or not they deliver a quality product. They just want to string you along and promise that if you pay another 60 bucks it'll be fixed in the sequel.

OOooohhh yes. I'm sure you cannot possibly be wrong.

They released it. It was awful. They patched it to a new version, v1.05.

Since then, they've released a series of beta patches, all of which were worse.

No official version since when? Last November? Which version would that be then? Oh, yes...the same version they released last November.

Tum te tum te tummmmm.................

BlackSix has replied to Luthiers post regarding his replies, the answer was that they had over 150 questions from two forums and this was going to take a little longer to give answers to.

Now where are the priorities to go?

1= get the patch ready for final release.

2= sort out over 150 questions to give answers to (probably many of which have already been answered before)

Patches don't make a game/company great: EA releases patches for their games all the time. Do you think EA is a good company? Is the latest Call of Duty a good game?

The answer to both is no: EA's sole interest is selling you next year's COD sequel. They only do as much work as is necessary to get people to buy the next game.

Do you seriously think this next final patch will magically fix CLOD? I sure don't. Don't worry though, because they'll address all the concerns in the 60$ sequel. :rolleyes: How do we know the sequel won't be a complete failure like this game? How do we know they won't just continue to say nothing for weeks on end and then get angry when paying customers demand information on the product we paid for? Do we think this company will magically change and become the developer of our dreams after the legendary sequel comes out? I predict it'll be more of the same.

Maybe you can explain to me how a development team that releases a game in this state, releases a couple of mediocre patches that make the game worse for a lot of people, and then promise to fix things in the sequel indicates an interest in putting out a quality product instead of just a cash grab.

Hmmmm..............

Blacksix has done this and Luthier said that and the wizard of oz is a real person who i went for a pint with only today.

Bit of reality injection required around here methinks.

Well we know that BlackSix isn't a software developer. IIRC he's a mission designer, so he has nothing to do with how fast the patch comes out.

If Luthier is the project lead then that means he's not writing any code either.

Therefore, answering questions should not push back the patch release by any appreciable amount. :rolleyes:

Okey Dokey. Well here's a thought. Cliffs of Dover is without doubt the number one combat flight simulator which is prepared for the future. Other sims work well now, play well now, but Cliffs of Dover is prepared for the future. It wasn't supposed to be released when it was, it was supposed to be released when the best of technology could cope, on very low settings. As the old game was.

Unfortunately for the reputation of the game, it was pushed out as being ready NOW. It wasn't ready now at all.

Give it time chaps, give it time.

They ( devs) don't owe us those answers to the questions. Shoot they don't even have to be courteous or keep us updated. But they are already giving us the courtesy.

Anyone seen seInfeld and the soup Nazi knows if they have a good product they can be rude and get Ppl in . The devs have the ww2 flight sim realm by the balls, until another golden age where multiple companies making great games comes or until another sim of this magnitude comes out.

What they do Owe us is a successor to il2 series and one that wilL surpass expectation . But it will be in their time and on their terms. And it seems that's what they are doing.

Sometimes life isn't exactly what we want, when we want, or the way we want it.

Just be thankful they are working on it and more games in the series.

Duke nuke fans got 10+ years and a working but fundamentally mediocore game. And the devs ain't bothering On improving it

Being crap now does not mean it is well equipped for the future. There is a difference between an engine that is demanding on hardware, and one that is poorly written. One will work well on tomorrow's systems. The other will not.

This attitude is the reason that we have to put up with the crap that so many game developers pull, like multiple-month delays between releasing a patch and releasing a list of what changes the patch made.

People are too willing to pay for mediocrity. You guys are all going to pre-order the sequel without knowing if it's any good or not, and you're going to keep enabling this company to behave poorly and release shoddy products.

I have no idea how many questions there are but if it's about 150 as has been suggested then reasonably speaking it's going to take at least a week of fairly solid effort to draft up the replies. As we all know, the answers to the questions (if and when they appear) are going to be analysed to death by the community. B/S and Luthier will be well aware of that. That being the case it's going to take multiple drafts (and several meetings I'd have thought) before they have a series of answers that are reasonably free of ambiguities yet sufficiently imprecise to allow for a bit of wiggle room. My guess would be this Friday at best or possibly next.

Ah hah. And all of the people who post on this forum really know the difference do they?

I certainly bloody don't. Trouble is, far too many people who throw (ahem) faeces on this forum pretend they do do, but in reality know sweet F.A. (Fanny Adams in case I just broke a rule).

I saw this advert for a holiday in the Seychelles. It was really cheap. Certainly compared to a B&B in Bognor.....

Do you think i should book it? I mean, I've never been there before...............

Unless you're on the dev team, you don't know any more than him.

Then please, enlighten us all with your prescient foresight. Let me guess, you also believe that Hobbits are real, and Tolkien portrayed a genuinely credible version of pre-history.

How could you possibly know whether or not 'Cliffs of Dover' is designed to meet the technology of tomorrow?

Oh shit. That sounds like raaaaaid, doesn't it? :(

That was rude, I apologize.

No worries Doggles, and no need to delete the post. :)

It's just that I don't think any of the users of this software can confidently say that it was a 'timely' release, or otherwise.

Try running IL2 '46 on a celeron processor with 256mb of RAM and onboard graphics. Then come back and say 'the engine is not optimised'.

FSX with loads of add-ons still taxes my system. The software is always ahead of the hardware. Who's to say that this is not the same situation (apart from Ubi's marketing dept)?

Software hardly ever goes ahead of hardware unless you are 5+ years back on your hardware. Devleopers know they grab a bigger market by not having tomorrows specs on new games. CLoD is no different, its just not good.

If anyone needs proof (from a consumers point of view) of how crappy the CLoD engine is, load it up, on a decent PC, and still watch the microstutters, and other such messes. Watch flak freezes. Watch trees "spawn" in.

Seriously...what else do you need? Compare it to RoF, or DCS even.

You can fool yourself into thinking the engine is ahead of its time, truth is, it isnt very good.

If the devs actually make it long enough to release another game, lets hope they figure out how to make this engine work without taking away everything.

As far as the answers go...does it really surprise anyone that "Ill be back later to answer them" didnt happen? How many times can people keep getting lied to, strung along, broken promised, and hoodwinked until they finally say enough? According to some people here....quite a while I guess.