Does the 109E have armor?

[Kurfürst]

A recent thread on weights got me thinking about wheter our 109E has any armor plates modelled. My virtual pilot certainly dies a lot from .303 hits, but that is not very conclusive as the 109 had an armor bulkhead relative far aft in the fuselage, so it could be bypassed by deflection hits. OTOH, it offered good protection against small caliber hits.

The reason this keeps me thinking is that the early cutaways Oleg showed no armor plate whatsoever, which was noted but I am not sure if this was fixed for the final release. And maybe its the last time to correct...

[Osprey]

If not it should have but tbh PK's on the 109 certainly used to be a novelty unless you got a shot in from 4 or 8 o'clock. High angle deflection from above into the canopy rarely bagged a PK, never understood why they did so little. All very strange when compared against the frequent PK's from the 2 .30cals on the 109 nose which occurred. I had expected the 8 guns to get lots of PK's so I'm actually pleased this seems to have changed.

[Glider]

From books that I have read in particular Fledging Eagles (Christopher Shores) the 109E didn't have pilot armor at the start of the war. But it was added during the battle of France in a similar manner to the RAF Hurricanes.
Both airforces as interim unauthorised field mods used armour taken from wrecked / disabled french fighters and the Luftwaffe did the same for the Ju87. Both sides had similar problems getting official permission but it was of course soon given and included in new production.
By th BOB it was standard to both German and British fighters

[5./JG27.Farber]

Originally Posted by glider

from books that i have read in particular fledging eagles (christopher shores) the 109e didn't have pilot armor at the start of the war. But it was added during the battle of france in a similar manner to the raf hurricanes.
Both airforces as interim unauthorised field mods used armour taken from wrecked / disabled french fighters and the luftwaffe did the same for the ju87. Both sides had similar problems getting official permission but it was of course soon given and included in new production.
By th bob it was standard to both german and british fighters

pilot plates! Pilot plates! Pilot plates! :-p

[notafinger!]

I see no evidence that CloD 109s have any armor plating. Certainly not behind the pilot & fuel tank. However, I do not think armor would defeat rifle caliber hits at very close range. Also, I believe that AP ammunition in game is far too effective. In reality AP ammo performed quity poorly in rifle caliber.

[*Buzzsaw*]

Salute

The Spitfires and Hurricanes are vulnerable to 7.92 rounds as well.

The fact is, unless the enemy aircraft is dead six behind, a bullet can easily sneak around the edges of the armour and hit the pilot.

In addition, multiple .303 hits on the same section of armour plate will penetrate, and when you have 8 guns firing, it doesn't take long.

According to the experts, the British fighters were equipped with weapons which were well suited for combat versus lightly built enemy fighters, but poorly equipped to take down the heavier built bombers. Vice Versa, the 109's were equipped poorly for taking down enemy fighters, in any kind of deflection shooting at fast maneuvering targets, the MG F/F with its low muzzle velocity is too inaccurate. Ironically the 109's armament was better suited to downing enemy bombers.

Both sides could have used the other's weapons to better purpose.

I expect both the 109's and the British aircraft are armoured.

[zander]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

In addition, multiple .303 hits on the same section of armour plate will penetrate, and when you have 8 guns firing, it doesn't take long.

"IF" you hit the the same spot twice - only that's not gonna happen irl, especially if you consider the firing window you have.
Conclusion:
If you can't penetrate the armor with your first bullet you never will.
Try to hit another weak spot and your golden.

[lonewulf]

Interesting thread. What I'd like to know is whether the armour penetrating qualities of 20 mm cannon rounds are actually modelled in the sim.

As I understand it, even 20 mm ball rounds should be able to defeat most of the armour plating installed in 1940 vintage fighter, if the range is kept relatively short. That's hardly surprising when you consider that, at this time, the head plate would more often than not be less than 10 mm thick and your average 20 mm 'AP round' would penetrate twice that thickness with ease.

I raise this issue because in my (admittedly limited experience), even concentrated strikes on the dead six position of an allied fighter from a cannon armed 109 is unlikely to result in a pilot kill.

[*Buzzsaw*]

Salute

On my Hurricane weight thread, Kurfust said:

Originally posted by Kurfurst:
The armored headrest weighted 13 kg which we do not have in the game, and if fact, its somewhat uncommon to be seen on BoB era 109E.

So if the the 109 has no headrest, that would pretty obviously explain the pilot kills. Hard to miss those unprotected big German Square heads poking up in the cockpit.

[David198502]

Originally Posted by Osprey

If not it should have but tbh PK's on the 109 certainly used to be a novelty unless you got a shot in from 4 or 8 o'clock. High angle deflection from above into the canopy rarely bagged a PK, never understood why they did so little. All very strange when compared against the frequent PK's from the 2 .30cals on the 109 nose which occurred. I had expected the 8 guns to get lots of PK's so I'm actually pleased this seems to have changed.

Osprey....i suggest that you fly again more often and shoot again at 109s....now at least, a pilot kill is very easy and if you dont kill him directly, then the flames will do if he doesnt bail quick enough...