Why take completely unhistorical approch to vehicles?

[aop]

I though Men of War was supposed to be somewhat realistic and historically correct but then I noticed the British have both Black Prince and Centurion and neither of them served on European continent or saw any action during World War 2.

They already have 17pdr armed Achilles, Sherman Firefly and Comet. Wasn't that enough? Did they really need a post-war tank and a prototype that never served?

What next? Give yeankees M48 Patton?

[KnightFandragon]

Black Prince and Centurion im sure are for play balance to give the British a tank that can stand up to German heavies...even then I doubt those can...they have butter for armor still...

[Crni vuk]

Originally Posted by aop

I though Men of War was supposed to be somewhat realistic and historically correct but then I noticed the British have both Black Prince and Centurion and neither of them served on European continent or saw any action during World War 2.

Since when was Men of war called a simulation ? Or even trying to be "realistic" ? It has few calculations thrown in here and there, fo the armor, angle and shells. But its far from realism. It makes the combat more complex which is a good thing and I like the game. But as said I would not make the mistake to see the game as realistic. And like Fangdragon said. Its more or less for the balance. You do know that no other unit could hold up to a Tiger or Panther in the field when it comes to armor. Achiles ? Archer ? Firefly ? Letz be serious here. The gun is powerfull but that was it. once hit from the Tiger or Panther and they are usualy out of action. The centurion is here a great unit. Same for the Comet. Though the centurion is maybe a bit to cheap for a unit that has no trouble to beat panthers and tigers.

[firearms2k]

Originally Posted by Crni vuk

Since when was Men of war called a simulation ? Or even trying to be "realistic" ? It has few calculations thrown in here and there, fo the armor, angle and shells. But its far from realism. It makes the combat more complex which is a good thing and I like the game. But as said I would not make the mistake to see the game as realistic. And like Fangdragon said. Its more or less for the balance. You do know that no other unit could hold up to a Tiger or Panther in the field when it comes to armor. Achiles ? Archer ? Firefly ? Letz be serious here. The gun is powerfull but that was it. once hit from the Tiger or Panther and they are usualy out of action. The centurion is here a great unit. Same for the Comet. Though the centurion is maybe a bit to cheap for a unit that has no trouble to beat panthers and tigers.

One hit is usually all it takes for any tank, so I don't know what you're getting at there.

It's implications of realism, and gameplay balance issues that wash out the entire need of even giving a game realistic features. If you're not going to stand by implementing realistic features, just to wash them out with the excuse of 'Balance', and 'Gameplay' then don't bother implementing them in the first place. This is the biggest gripe I have with this game, it's realistic features is what makes it different and far more complex than a game of Company of Heroes, but they wash it out in extremely dumbfounded ways; progressively turning it into a game of Company of Heroes again.

The Centurion is a dumb idea, for all the matter if the Centurion/Black Prince/IS-3/T29 is in the game, then the Germans should get Panzer Löwe's, and the Maus for the same reason of your 'Balance', and 'Gameplay'. It doesn't make sense, and I was very pleased to see the Turtle, and the American T29 gone in the factions for the release of the open beta. At the current state of the open beta if they don't fix it, it's just going to be vanilla MoW with the same tank stacking every game, which the devs so pleasently represent that they're doing away with. And with the Centurion being only 1400-1500 iirc(?), it's incredibly easy.

[DMS|Instinct]

Originally Posted by firearms2k

The Centurion is a dumb idea, for all the matter if the Centurion/Black Prince/IS-3/T29 is in the game, then the Germans should get Panzer Löwe's, and the Maus for the same reason of your 'Balance', and 'Gameplay'.

Please elaborate why you think this has something to do with balance or gameplay.

[Crni vuk]

Originally Posted by firearms2k

One hit is usually all it takes for any tank, so I don't know what you're getting at there.

I made a different experience though where I would hit a tank with powerfull guns several times just geting the "crew injured" or "hull pierced" message where the enemy tank managed to kill my armor with the first shoot while it just had 2 crewmen inside ... if you callt hat realistic ? Neat. But I dont. I call it some exagerated feature. There is a very famous footage on youtube available about a battle between the Panther and Pershing in cologne which shows very nicely what usualy happens when a tank gets hit and penetrated (it even shows how the second or third shoot by the pershing simply shatters on the Panthers armor, but thats not important since the first shoot was a direct hit).

Even if a tank is just hit and nothing "vital" would be damaged (leaving alone the crew ...) it would be extremly difficult well pretty much impossible to operate the vehicle effectively from the smoke and heat generated by the shoot and penetration.

[Jammermon]

Read some actual WW-II Armor after action reports. They are all unclassified now.

Tanks were considered either "resistant to typical enemy" or "vulnerable to typical enemy" by their crews.
The ones considered vulnerable, (example Shermans were nicknamed Ronsons by their own crews and "Tommy Cookers" by the Germans) were often bailed out when hit by a non penetrating hit. Regardless once immobile the common result was a bail out.

This idea of a tank sitting rock solid taking hit after hit imprevious to penetration is a gamers concept based on penetration THEORY.
Every tank had vulnerable spots; turrent rings, vision slits, traps under gun boss, flat surfaces... even a Jagdtiger was toast once it's tracks were damaged...

If nothing else a ricochet between the tracks COULD enter the vulnerable underside...

No crew ignored hits over 40MM...

[KnightFandragon]

Ive always wondered what are the effects of a tank shell once they penetrate armor? Not modern day ones but WWII shells like the 75mm of the Sherman. It is so low velocity that it couldnt penetrate the front of anything but can penetrate the side, what does it do to "knockout" the tank. Ive always imagined a Sherman round penetrating the side of a panther tank and since the shell is Low Velocity it goes through the armor but loses all velocity and is left resting on the floor of the Panther.....while the Crew is just laughing and killing the Sherrmy. Anywho, Does the explosion of the shell light up ammo or something? To me it seems an AP round going into a tank just makes a hole, its like why get out? The tank still works.....If it doesnt light up or explode why bail out of it? Ive always wondered why crews bail from a mostly perfectly fine tank.

[Jammermon]

The HVAP round tended to enter and ricochet around inside, the HEAP round tends to send a high temperature splatter around. Either injury was grevious. Even a standard non-HVAP was still chugging along at speeds above pistol ammo, but as big as your fist...

Arms legs, and sundry body parts missing, complete or near complete incineration, sometimes even just a bio jelly left in the tank bottom, all tended to result in a "Get out!" when hit...

And the Sherman "Easy Eight" with 76MM gun firing HVAP (500 meters/115MM Armor) had a chance of penetrating any German armor inside 250-300 yards... i
t's one of the reasons the Panzers avoided city fighting...

Jammer

Only a very few tanks had fire suppression in WW-II.

[Bobb4]

Originally Posted by KnightFandragon

Ive always wondered what are the effects of a tank shell once they penetrate armor? Not modern day ones but WWII shells like the 75mm of the Sherman. It is so low velocity that it couldnt penetrate the front of anything but can penetrate the side, what does it do to "knockout" the tank. Ive always imagined a Sherman round penetrating the side of a panther tank and since the shell is Low Velocity it goes through the armor but loses all velocity and is left resting on the floor of the Panther.....while the Crew is just laughing and killing the Sherrmy. Anywho, Does the explosion of the shell light up ammo or something? To me it seems an AP round going into a tank just makes a hole, its like why get out? The tank still works.....If it doesnt light up or explode why bail out of it? Ive always wondered why crews bail from a mostly perfectly fine tank.

A heat round normally has a tungstan tip which punches a hole through the armour. Behind the tungstan tip the shell is nomally filled with copper and this liquifies due to kinetic energy and sprays through the hole forming pinhead sized balls with harden as they enter the tank crew area.
These buzz around inside bouncing from wall to wall like millions of pin sized tennis balls.
The end result resembles mince meat crew.
A normal heat round hit does not leave room for a bail out of crew.
Oddly enough the thinner the armour the more likely there is for a through and through which means unless you are in the way of the round everyone lives.
The modern RPG works on the same principle it is just delivered via rocket rather than round.