The MOD mentality....

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by Jumoschwanz

I am an old man with grey hair that was out of school before there was MTV, cell phones or IBM personal computers, so maybe I am easier entertained than younger people and have more patience and respect for things outside myself.....

Well I wouldn't call myself old.. but I am closer to 60 than to 50.. (so maybe I'm just in denial.. LOL) but I dunno man ... You roll with it... float ... like a butterfly ..

Originally Posted by T}{OR

Blaming mods is as much as bad idea as forcing stock game on everyone. Though 4.11 does offer much more than any moded version for me currently.
What would prolong the games life is a tool which would give servers the more or less complete control with what content one can and can not join a MP game.

Isn't it pretty much like that now... I have accidentally attempted to go into a stock server modded and in a modded server while stock .. and it didn't work .. at least that's my impression.

[Asheshouse]

Originally Posted by HundertneunGustav

Today, Asheshouse is doing CV5 for Il-2.
Tomorrow he will work on a Ship Simulator you can buy.

Hey! Is that a job offer?

[HundertneunGustav]

shhhh... its a secret...

[HundertneunGustav]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

The MSFT CFS2 and 3 community was plagued with the same disease, but there was not history of a online gaming worth much. So, it's harder to make silk purse from pigs ears.

Mods malady?
i would like to strongly disagree.
VERY strong disagree indeed!

I have seen CFS3, so let me get the ball rolling with these arguments:

-stock flightmodels not for real.
a spit that can do 15...20 loopings in a row, starting at treetop level and ending at 1000 feet...
NO.

-stock FMs/DMs incomplete
No overheating... one Bullet coming close to the engine cowling = dead engine within 10 minutes.

-AI not well developped
Stock AI started shooting as soon as they were in Range - if a weapon had an effective Range of 1000 meters, that would be the exactly the range at which you could expect a AI to start shooting at you. (icons)

-Stock Equipment incomplete.
G6, G10; A5 and A8 for german Prop fighters...
B and D Mustang B and D thud for the Yanks.
Spit9C and 9E (spit9E =.50 cals outside the Hispano, on the inner .303 position)

-Game designed in a Way that everyone can see and edit the files, Following the CFS2, Flight simulator Philosophy.

-Microsoft Simulators have always been designed to entice the community to produce stuff on their own.
Hence their releases of SDKs.

CFS2, and 3 had no mod malady.
They worked exactly as designed by their creators.

Mods filled the gaping holes of what was an arcade shooter with
-corrected content, the community went to great lengths to put the credo "as real as it gets" into action
-new content

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by HundertneunGustav

CFS2, and 3 had no mod malady.
They worked exactly as designed by their creators.

True..

But, correct me if I am wrong, nearmiss was refering to 3rd party addons, thus simply replace the word 'mod' in his post with '3rd party addon' and I belive his point will be more clear

That being there should be only one!

Which I am on the fence about.. I can see the pros and cons of there being more than one

If I had my way, no mod or mod pack would touch the FMs of the stock (Oleg) planes.. If you as a mod maker and FM tweaker think you can do a better job than Oleg, Fine! Just do us who may not agree with you a favor and make a new slot for said plane and put in your own FM. I know it can be messy, two versions of the same plane, but if all mods and mod pack did it that way it would leave the 'choice' at the user level, that is to say you would not be forced to use the mod makers version of how he thinks it should be.

[HundertneunGustav]

Hmm. Online flying...

well, he was also referring to online playability - for which there were other issues: the online gaming code from CFS2 had these "airplane Bubbles" that made the standard Plane DM redundant, and for CFS3 the code was so messed up, the planes spent more time skidding sidaways and underground than anything else.

But - in CFS3 you couldnt mess with your plane like in CFS2. one change, one adjustment, even if it was a "limiting" one was detected, and you were told to bugger off by the error message system "Game version not compatible - go ***k yourself, you cheater"


Not touching the Stock FM
********************

That's the old AAA way to do things. Limited sharing of knowledge, mistrust in the userbase, concurrence thinking, everyone having different opinions...
Prohibition to touch stock, and a Gazillion of Variants of the same plane by a dozen different people.

The result is those famous Java memory limitations getting in the user' s way.
So far that Slots have to be "unified" and small features dropped, because, as you describe, everyone is able to interpret planes in a different way and add/ remove features as they want.

But - and that is an amazing effect i have seen:
Common sense kicks in, at least somewhat.
An example:
You know we had about , like, 50 or so 109s available for use... a ridiculous amount of 109Gs of every mix and Match, erla, tall tail, AS or not, wheel sizes, MG 151/20 in the nose or MK108 only, Wurfgranaten or not, Recce, semi-whatif variants, pressurized cockpits, *head shaking*

you know the mess the 109 is yourself, they botched them together like a desperate nation does...

there were so many (accurate?) variants of Planes available, that for Major Modpacks to be possible, slots had to be merged, some features that made little if any difference dropped.

I found that awesome. Common sense had kicked in - and it had happened in a community of people that broke the laws, a community that hacked games!

Technical limitations were discovered, and people realized they could not expand limitless. They became reasonable. (if i may call it that)

And also - the modders do not touch the FMs much any more. Once a beta plane has had a few limited workovers, and nobody really complains about the FM/DM any more, its pretty much settled.
http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/board,194.0.html
There you see a fair amount of FM discussion, true. But Its not the screaming we have here about a nerfed F4U and entire squads being involved in proving that "TD is wrong" and such things.

And i think that things such as the corrected Loadouts would not be possible either, since FM and loadouts are somehow interconnected.

Online= important
=============

I see your point!
Il-2 was, and still IS, the only WWII CFS to handle the Online thing well.

I never used the Game' s online interface, but last time i was in Hyperlobby (2007... wayyyy back) things were freaking SMOOTH!
Carrier landings!
Formation flights, wingtip to wingtip!
Racing Mig's and Mustangs around the circuit - sometimes mere inches from one another!
accurate 37mm Shots!
little if any lag spikes!

gee, the developers of the game "had it nailed" in my opinion.

Preserving this great asset for the user, i can understand that people are very passionate about it.

Were my life circumstances different, i would be an "onliner" too, and not be in the "pure offliner" camp.
(I would spend an unhealthy amount of time flying online... i f'kin swear!)

I would be, like you, on the fence.

Switching - Being able to join every Game there is.
-------------------------------------------------
Storebror he made that selector program... be able to switch from Stock 4.101 to "any and all mods" with a click.
And with such a setup, joining a specfic server is much less of a hassle than ever before.

not perfect auto-detection of "server game and mod version" --> launching appropriate game, but still...

Its not so bad, i recon.
whats out there at the moment, server-wise?
Stock?
DBW?
UP3?
HSFX? il-2 1956 (?)
Maybe even DBW 1916?

If so, joining them is a matter of reading the server info, and before jumping into the server via hyperlobby, adjusting your game version in the selector.

Its not perfect... but Its the best there is at the moment.

If i had my way
=============
I would want it all.
I would want the stuff that TD puts into the game to be in perfect harmony with my favourite Modpack, which is DBW on top of a UP3.

How that? Let me dream for a moment.
Hmm, maybe TD could focus on the code, the features, the "stuff behind the curtain" while the Modders could bring new content , to make use of the "code behind the curtain".

For example:
Let TD Implement the ability to have 12 prop pitch and 12 power axis per plane.
Let the Modders Make a Plane that has 12 prop engines.

Let TD implement Chaff and Flares
Let the Modders create these countermeasures on the newly released Phantom.

Let TD implement code for ground based interceptions
Let the Modders make a Mig-25 Foxbat.

Let TD implement Carrier Features
Let the Modders Create Carriers from USS Langley to Admiral Kuznetzov.

Let TD implement advanced plane features and malfunctions, failures and Systems (icing on wings, freezing guns and windows, ... the forum is full of stuff like that)
Let the Modders create planes that were well know to suffer from said failures, or put the necessary code into the old planes that have existed for a decade now.
(assymetrical Slats on the 109, de-icing ballons on the american Bomber wings, damaged oxygen systems letting AI gunners die, and AI pilots dive for the deck... your imagination is the limit)

I think such a setup would be ... awesome.
Then it is a Matter to decide whet mods come into the official Updates.

But it aint gonna happen...

[Ra'Kaan]

I was going through some old patch notes and I came across this info:

Content of 410m.exe

Main features:
MDS (Moving Dogfight Server).
MDS was originally released as un-official modification for IL-2 by Zuti.

My point is that is seems that TD and modders have already been collaborating on some things.

This was news to me, but probably old info for most.

I'm sure with the proper communications and permissions etc. we may be seeing some more mods implemented into official patches in the future.

I for one would love to see some coordination to include FOV correction for widescreen such as San's FOV changer in an official patch.

[MOH_Hirth]

Originally Posted by Jumoschwanz

Talking about mods is allowed on this forum, does that mean that it has to all be positive? Blowing sunshine up someone's skirt? Opposing opinions and criticism are part of free speech and free societies, especially if they are facts.
The last things I have to say on the subject is that if I can learn to fly, compete, fight and have fun using the official patches of IL2 and you can not without using modifications, hacks and cheats, then yes, I am better than you.

And if I choose to stick by the official version of IL2 and back up those who work on it instead of complaining about it and modding it after only trying it for a few days, then that makes me feel better about myself too.

Those who can do, and those who can't use mods, hacks and cheats and will still get shot down anyway... They are not smart enough to realize that the problem lies not with their tools, but with themselves.

Thank you for moving this to the proper forum, the mod forum, and thank you for letting me have my say. I think I am finished now.....

You dont know nothing about mods, you are just a radiacal anti-mod, there is a lot of great improvements by modders with hight quality, but if dont want to see at last close your mounth!

[Whacker]

This thread has been an eye opener, and makes me very sad.

[HundertneunGustav]

Hmm.
Why that?
I mean, the "becoming sad" part?