BSM Rank and Class System

[R@S]

I'll start with what I got so far, the 5 groups and the skills and parameters I think should be available when leveling up.

Trooper
REA, DEX, SHT, GFT, STR

Sniper
EYE, SNP, CAM, AGT, DEX

Sapper
SAP, DEX, HWP, INT, REA

Scout
EYE, HRN, CAM, STH, AGT

Medic
MED, HP, EN, STM, INT

Then we have the cost of those skills

Health = 2
Energy = 2
Eyesight = 2
Hearing = 2
Strength = 1
Stamina = 1
Dexterity = 1
Agility = 1
Reaction = 1
Intelligence = 2
Shooting = 1
Sniping = 1
Gunfighting = 1
HeavyWeapon = 1
Throwing = 1
HandToHand = 1
Camo = 2
Sapper = 2
Medic = 2
Stealth = 2
Leadership = 2
Charm = 2

These are just my thoughts, and what Kyle suggested in the other thread, having the option to buy skills for another class at a higher cost should be included somehow.

When I only give each class 5 skills to choose from in each, I have the GUI in mind. I think there's room for 6 or 7 on each "page" of the dialog screen, and I want to fit that limit. That can be solved by showing the classes on the first page, the player can then choose the class and on the second page we'll have the skills. To put the "penalty" on the cost of skills outside the chosen class would be easy to implement.

What say you?

[Kyle]

Yeah, it's a pretty good idea to devote a thread to this new endeavor of yours, as the consequences for what you're trying to do are pretty enormous, especially with making sense of how factions develop/distribute/interact over the map. I savor the opportunity to have more control over how one skills develop in the game, and if your mod works as planned, that's exactly what we'll get.

BE5's and 7.62's methods of elevating skills and attributes are too nebulous to me. Sometimes there's an elevation and one is left wondering, "Now why in the world did I just get this raised under these circumstances instead of that...?"

It sounds like you're aiming at getting rid of that ambiguity, and I feel that that's a good thing.


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Before I comment on what you posted, I'd like to say that I'm happy that you're seriously considering my suggestion about making all skills available to all classes, but that skills outside of a class' skill pool cost more.


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Trooper
REA, DEX, SHT, GFT, STR

Sniper
EYE, SNP, CAM, AGT, DEX

Sapper
SAP, DEX, HWP, INT, REA

Scout
EYE, HRN, CAM, STH, AGT

Medic
MED, HP, EN, STM, INT

I've scrutinized this list for quite a while, and can't find no glaring faults with it. Good job! It looks like you're really committed to having no more than 5 skills per class, and if that's the case, then the only suggestion I have is for the Sniper. I'd swap the dexterity for stealth. There's no question that Snipers' hands are highly trained for wielding bolt-action rifles, but what makes a Sniper especially deadly is not the nimbleness of his fingers but his ability to infiltrate a region without detection. This takes a tremendous amount of will power, endurance, and agility. The nimbleness of his fingers will help him none when he's detected and a hail of rounds are directed his way!

Health = 2 Yup!
Energy = 2 Yup!
Eyesight = 2 Yup!
Hearing = 2 Yup!
Strength = 1 Yup!
Stamina = 1 Yup!
Dexterity = 1 Yup!
Agility = 1 Yup!
Reaction = 1 Yup!
Intelligence = 2 Yup!
Shooting = 1 Yup!
Sniping = 1 I'd make this cost 2 points. Being able to make a successful shot while taking into account air pressure, barometric pressure, air temperature, wind currents, and more... Well, in my mind, that's more like conducting surgery at long range, with the intent to kill instead of heal, of course!
Gunfighting = 1 Yup!
HeavyWeapon = 1 My feelings on this are mixed, primarily due to this being a skill that covers SO many different types of typically bulky weapons. I've never fired a machinegun firing 7.62s, nor have I ever fired a grenade launcher, but in my mind, the amount of training to use these safely and properly has to be more robust than a standard small arms weapon. Perhaps raise this cost to 2?
Throwing = 1 Yup!
HandToHand = 1 For a brief period of time, I studied karate, and while the Hand to Hand skill in the game certainly doesn't look like it's all that sophisticated, I can say that the mental discipline required to fight, and fight WELL, is pretty demanding. One's ability to read the opponent's body is also vital, and not an easy thing to do. That's my experience anyway. Maybe raise this cost to 2?
Camo = 2 The first two years of my university years were spent studying commercial illustration, and the one thing that I never forgot is that the human eye/mind is an EASY thing to fool visually. Smearing on makeup, and securing local flora and fauna to one's body is not a "rocket science" skill. Snipers and scouts, I'm sure, take it to the next level, as their main concern is trying to counter others who have been TRAINED to detect THEM. I think that this skill is meant in the more general sense, so I'd lower its cost to 1.
Sapper = 2 Yup!
Medic = 2 Yup!
Stealth = 2 Yup!
Leadership = 2 Yup!
Charm = 2 Yup!

Hope this helps in some way!

[R@S]

Well, I'm open to add one or two more skills to each class, if they fit the concept. And we could also add some skill points to the class automatically when leveling up. Like you always get 1 point of sniper skill when leveling up as a sniper, or one point of sapper skill when leveling up as a sapper.

When on the subject of sappers, the main reason I merged the HWP skill and class with the sapper class is that it would otherwise be rather unattractive as a choise. It's also the reason I gave the HWP cost a 1 instead of 2. But if one is of another class, the cost should be 4, not 3.

And I also gave the sniper class the DEX instead of stealth to make it more distinct from the scout class. But you're right, the sniper class should have the stealth skill as well.

The stealth skill is also one of those hidden values that doesn't show anywhere in the game, and there's anotherone called professionalship(shouldn't it be professionalism?), that also could play a part in this new rank system. I'll make a new system to display those values, either by adding it to the player journal or in the leveling up screen.

It's been a long day and I need a nap, I'll add more when I've slept on it.

[Kyle]

In regards to assigning more skills to each class' skill-pool, if I were you, I'd consider adding maybe 1 more skill/class. The trick being that if too many skills are assigned per class type the more likely it is that they'll all become too similar.

I like your idea of auto-upping the primary skill trait of each class with every level.

How would the maximum number of points be determined? An average of their primary attributes/skills minus the # of unsuccessful attacks at a target and/or other unsuccessful actions (a Medic failing to do a good job with applying first aid), or...?

For example, to keep the math simple, say that with every new level the character automatically starts with a experience modification multiplier # of "10." Every time a Sniper misses with his sniping skill, 1 is subtracted from 10. Every time he's successful 1 is added to whatever was lost, but to never exceed 10. His experiences will affect how many points he'll be awarded come time to level up.

Now. Let's pretend that the maximum number of potential points a character can earn is based on an average of the three most essential skills in that class' skill-pool divided by 10. Thus a Medic with an intelligence of 63, a medical skill of 57, and a dexterity of 51 would get 6 points to spend with every leveling (63+57+51=171, then divided by 3=57, then divided by 10=5.7 rounded up to 6).

So that Medic can receive a maximum of 6 points for that leveling up, based on his top three attributes/skills. But let's pretend that he had three rather unsuccessful attempts at applying first aid, and then afterward had 1 successful medical application, he'd end up with an experience modification multiplier of 80% (10-3=7, +1=8, x10=80). One would take the maximum potential points of 6, and multiply that against the experience modification multiplier, which results in the character having earned 5 points out of a potential of 6 to spend (6 x .800=4.8 rounded up to 5).

Can anyone explain to me what is meant in 7.62 by the Scout class? Are they intended to be the "hardest of the hardcore" special forces type, or...? To be the ultimate infiltrator...?

Also, am I correct in stating that even though the values for stealth and professionalism are "hidden" they are still impacting gameplay?

What is meant by "professionalism?" How well one interacts with one's comrades? If one talks to them a lot, will that extra effort at communication result in better results, and what are those results? Better morale so that a squad's adrenaline rush and recovery from said rush are better, or...?

[Kyle]

Forgot to add that congratulations on being a librarian; in my opinion, THE most important government job any society can offer, and with potentially enormous consequences for the good of society.

Especially if they're programming for 7.62!

[R@S]

I like the idea of having the amount of points depend on player actions, but there is no way to actually do what you're suggesting when it comes to checking successful sniper hits and such. The released source code mostly deals with quests and some AI things, like how patrols behave but not how NPC does. It's too bad because that's what I'd like to tweak a bit. And most of the games calculations are also hidden, like the weapon system, behavior and how the skills play a part in those.

The scout class is something Nightprowler came up with for the BSM, and a scout can be very useful in some situations in the game, especially on some random maps where you can place a scout before the enemies reach you. He'll be able to spot the enemies long before they spot your shooter/sniper and you can pick them off before they get too close. My scout almost never fires a shot in a firefight, and when he does it's when something has gone wrong. The most important thing when using a scout is to watch the "visibility" bar in the lower left corner, it shows you where the good hiding spots are on any given map.

I would say that the Stealth skill is very important and it impacts the game when fighting. I think there's a check all the time to see if the enemy can see you. Since it stands against the enemy's eyesight AND hearing, I would say it's more important than the Camo skill.

I think the Professionalism skill mostly has to do with your RPC interaction, or at least that's what the released source code seems to indicate. When hiring new mercs there is a check to see if your Prof skill is high enough for that merc, I think it's usually around 25. The game also gives you 10 points every time you complete a mission successfully, and it deducts 50 if you kill one of your mercs and 15 if he dies in your service. It might have other functions, but as I said earlier, it's hidden in the unreleased code.

[Kyle]

It's a shame that we can't get a better look at the hidden mechanics.

And here I spent all of that time reflecting on my earlier years of playing tabletop Dungeons & Dragons, GURPS, Battletech, and whatnot...

I miss those days! Sitting around a kitchen table, surrounded by good friends, snacks, and staying up till the wee hours carefully using one's brain.

I think that out of all of the roleplaying systems I've played, GURPS was, without question, the most logical, sensible, and easily applicable. I've taken a look at the latest edition of D&D's rules, and while much better than its immediate predecessor (an easy thing to do, in my opinion), it's mechanics are still clunky and far more abstracted compared to GURPS' system.

I've always been surprised that Steve Jackson hasn't cashed in on his near-flawless system by licensing it to virtual creations. The creators of Fallout approached him, but in the end he declined.

I'm guessing that they wanted too much "ownership" out of something that's clearly Jackson's baby...

Sorry, started reminiscing there.

Back to the Scout class... The role that you described sounds an awful lot like a real life spotter for snipers. Not how I was imagining it, but in BE5 I always had the stealthiest person play that role. Send them out and watch where the rounds land in relation to the targets' positioning.

I didn't know that there was a "Stealth Indicator Number" on display in 7.62. Not that it matters a whole lot, because I always have my squad move from one spot of concealment/cover to another, and preferably in the shadows. That's useful to know though, so I'll check for it the next time I play.

[Kyle]

R@S,

Let me see if I'm understanding one of your goals correctly:
are you trying to enable us to pick any avatar that we wish, and then assign a class to that avatar? If so, I'd much prefer this to the current system, of being "stuck" with a specific CHARACTER with an already well-defined background. For some reason, having this background already there reduces the sense of immersion for me. As a player, I would much rather prefer to select my avatar's appearance, then his/her class type, and allow me to imagine and role play out "who" my character is. Is this what you're aiming for? If so, I'd advise supplying a clearly defined description of what each class does, and its exact starting stats, and have all of these definitions easy to find, and preferably, compare to one another.

I'd like to pitch a class-type that I can't recall ever seeing being spelled out in the Blue Sun Mod...

Close Quarters Battle Specialist
Imagine a SWAT officer and you'll have an excellent idea of what I mean, which is someone who is highly trained at fighting in-close to their targets, both with small arms and hand-to-hand.

I'm not going to quote exact figures here, since I can't see what your starting stats are for the other classes, there's no point in me stating starting figures that could be substantially different than yours, so I'm just stating generalities.

Endurance: high due to constant drilling with the "weapon at the ready." Out of all of the attributes/skill levels I'm proposing, this one is the "least necessary" to me.

Eyesight*: high due to constantly training the entering of rooms of various lighting conditions, and having to quickly determine whether a foe is friendly or not
*Since I'm not sure how 7.62 handles this, perhaps an attribute/skill to better describe what I'm trying to get at here is Intelligence. While I'm sure SWAT officers have to have excellent eyesight, that doesn't necessarily mean that they can see things more CLEARLY at a DISTANCE, but rather that they're highly trained to quickly ASSESS whether a potential target is friend or foe.

Hearing: high, again due to constantly drilling to be as perceptive as possible within environments that are so small as to allow no room for error.

Snapshot: high, for reasons that should now be obvious.

Shooting: high, again as above.

Hand-to-Hand: high, as above.

Reaction Time: I don't want to split hairs here, but my lack of knowledge regarding 7.62's mechanics does leave me guessing. If the Eyesight attribute doesn't due, and/or the Intelligence attribute is too vague, then perhaps what I'm really looking for is the ability to react QUICKLY to what's being seen/heard. I'm just bringing it up here so that you can better be in my shoes to understand my thinking. Well, however you decide it should go, if you come to the same conclusion as myself regarding this matter, then the Reaction Time should also be highly refined.

Throwing: They're pretty good with those grenades, aren't they? Out of all of the stats/skills proposals here, this is the second weakest one to me.



Now, if you'd like me to create a background story for an avatar/character, then I'd be more than happy to do so.

Not to toot my horn too strongly, but I feel that I'm a pretty solid writer, and I already have a character's background details cooked up that would be fairly...um...interesting. I'll put it down for you if you'd like to head in that direction.

Let me know!

[R@S]

Originally Posted by Kyle

R@S,

Let me see if I'm understanding one of your goals correctly:
are you trying to enable us to pick any avatar that we wish, and then assign a class to that avatar? If so, I'd much prefer this to the current system, of being "stuck" with a specific CHARACTER with an already well-defined background. For some reason, having this background already there reduces the sense of immersion for me. As a player, I would much rather prefer to select my avatar's appearance, then his/her class type, and allow me to imagine and role play out "who" my character is. Is this what you're aiming for? If so, I'd advise supplying a clearly defined description of what each class does, and its exact starting stats, and have all of these definitions easy to find, and preferably, compare to one another.

Yup, that's what I wanna do. The player only has to choose how the avatar will look from the 8 available models, then this new class system will deal with the skills. I think there'll be some minor differences in their starting physical attributes, but those won't make any difference in the long run. I was thinking that the male models will have a little higher strength from the start while the female will have better agility. But as I said, the differences will not be that big and it wont affect the gameplay.

Consider your new class added, is it OK if we call it a Skirmisher? These are the main 5 attributes for that class if I were to pick five.
Reaction(This skill covers your idea for EYE and HEARING, at least when in confined spaces.)
Stamina(endurance)
Snapshot
Strength
Shooting

I would say that Reaction and Snapshot would be the main skills for this class, and EYE and HRN should be there as well. Maybe we could make so that every other lvl up we could have 2 sets of skills, like when even the choice would be the above skills, but when odds we would replace strength and shooting with Eyesight and Hearing. On second thought, we should do something similar on all classes, having only the most important attributes available every time.

[Kyle]

Consider your new class added...

Yay! I'm quite happy about this!


"Skirmisher" is a much more succinct, and great way of summarizing my too-long Class Name. I'm definitely in favor of it!

Reaction
Stamina (endurance)
Snapshot
Strength
Shooting

The above list looks "right on" to me in regards to what I was trying to get at. I'm honestly surprised that 7.62 didn't supply such an "obvious" class-type before.

No one's perfect, but now that I'm here...



About alternating attributes/skills that are available when leveling up with Even and Odd numberings...

My initial reaction, and I'll be very up front about this, is deeply related from my prior experiences of going from playing Dungeons & Dragons to GURPS: I strongly feel this "alternate-leveling" should be avoided.

In D&D, such Even's/Odd's "availability" leveling up's were commonplace, and if that's all that one ever knows, then it's highly likely that there will be no questioning of such a design scheme, but after playing GURPS...

I strongly feel that one doesn't even have to play GURPS to quickly and deeply appreciate the utter soundness of its logic, and easy-to-grasp "relay-ability" of WHY the game's mechanics are setup the way they are, because they model one's real life experiences extremely closely. They also maximize a player's ability to chose exactly what they want his/her character to be, without causing Game Masters a ton of frustration designing a mission/dungeon for a gaming environment that is so seemingly "player friendly."

I strongly feel that a good deal of D&D's design problems are from how it was designed too much around the "supposed" needs of the Dungeon Master in order to get a "good" role playing experience, but that's a whole thread in and of itself...

One would also be mistaken to assume that a game design system such as GURPS would make it more challenging to enjoy and become immersed in fantasy-based environments, but one would be very wrong in making such an assumption, but that's a whole different thread as well...

Anyway, back on target: alternating "when" an attribute/skill can be raised seems too arbitrary to me. Now, the way BE5 and 7.62 automatically elevates certain skills is also arbitrary to me, but that's due to there frequently being no clear connection between an event that just occurred and the elevating of an attribute/skill that may not be related to said event. It may not be as arbitrary as it appears, but until we can see the guts of its mechanics, we can only judge what we actually experience.

It also reduces player options, and having put GURPS through the grinder many a time, I can say that with all confidence that putting that power in the player's hands can work, and does not "have to" lead to headaches and "failure."

If I was a player, I'd prefer to always have full access to my character's attributes/skills, and have growth be managed by...
(1) ...the cost of raising attributes/skills, with some being clearly and reasonably more challenging to raise than others, and...
(2) ...the number of points that I get to spend.

So, in this game-based-economy, my options are kept wide open in regards to what I could invest in, but my resources are limited so I have to chose what is most valuable to me at a given time. As circumstances change, so will my decision making, and like any real life flesh and blood human being would do, I'll alter my choices as necessary.


Before I go, a link to all things GURPS. Take a quick look at the write ups for the products, and be prepared to drool. Illuminati is a BLAST to play as well. AWESOME game. Bye for now!
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/