Oxygen

[Adlerangriff]

S!

Does anyone have any good info on the use of oxygen in planes? Lets look at all planes prior to Jan 1942 at first and if this actually turns into a semi productive discussion, we can open it up as we go.

I am interested in what the max altitude is that a pilot can fly and actually fight at with no oxygen?

Should this be the max altitude on planes in the game that did not have oxygen in real life? That seems rather silly but I have to ask.

Was there any correlation between radio equipment and oxygen in planes?

So, once again, Lets start in the early war and go from there.

Thanks,
Brandle

[WTE_Galway]

Its not that simple.

Whilst clearly at 30,000 feet you have a very short time until everyone is unconscious (a Beechcraft KingAir was lost here recently because it depressurised and then flew 1000 km further on autopilot with no-one at the controls till it eventually ran out of fuel) there is no "magic" altitude and it effects differently people differently.

The higher you go the shorter the time you have before apoxia sets in. At 10,000 feet it can take as long as 10 minutes before effects are noticeable.


Pilots acclimatised to high altitudes can handle it better. Also some people function with oxygen deprivation better than others.

This website gives an OK introduction to the topic.

http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/aero/oxygen.htm

[Oktoberfest]

I'm a glider pilot. In our flight manual, it's said that you don't have to wear an oxigen mask up to 3800 m, but it is recommended to start sooner "according to your bodies ability". And they really recommend you to go see a medic beofre you start flying that high.

[Vigilant]

WoW sucks.

Great Engrish btw

[Former_Older]

During WWII, each fighter pilot (could well be all aircrew but the memoirs I have read were by pilots) in the USAAC/USAAF would undergo "hypoxia" training, in which an oxygen deprived atmosphere was endured by the pilot while in a classroom. Each pilot saw the real-time effects on a pilot volunteer who removed his oxygen mask in the classroom, (which was a sealed chamber) who was ordered to write his name on a chalkboard while breathing normally without his O2 mask

As the effects of oxygen starvation progressed, the signature became worse and worse until the volunteer would nearly pass out, then the instructor would slap the O2 mask back on the pilot, who revived almost instantly

The pilots would then pair off in a 'buddy system' to ensure nobody was killed by O2 starvation. One at a time, each of the pair would remove his O2 mask, and observe the personal effects of oxygen starvation on themselves while monitored by their buddy

Each pilot's personal symptoms would be noted, and then remembered. If an O2 line failed in flight, or a regulator iced up, there was no warning light or buzzer. The pilot needed to know that his sudden warm feeling, drowsiness, elevated pulse, euphoria, blue fingernails, or tingling sensation meant oxygen starvation and risk of immediate death. As noted, not only was each pilot's tolerance and useful time to react was different, the signs of this happening were also different from human to human

Modelling this in the sim would rely on arbitrary values, or else some kind of "points" system, both of which I dislike. The problem here is the highly unique circumstance that is the fact of th matter. Some type of oxygen starvation model must be present in my opinion, as well as the chance for O2 systems to be damaged in combat

[mondo]

Originally Posted by Former_Older

Modelling this in the sim would rely on arbitrary values, or else some kind of "points" system, both of which I dislike. The problem here is the highly unique circumstance that is the fact of th matter. Some type of oxygen starvation model must be present in my opinion, as well as the chance for O2 systems to be damaged in combat

Oxygen starvation also affects different people in different ways and to different degrees. I suffered mild hypoxia at 20,000ft in Nepal but it was just a bit of a headache and tiredness whereas one of the other guys I was with was puking his guts up and we had to give him medication and get him down. Some of the other people I was with who were more experianced didn't suffer at all.

Then you have to think about the reaction to decreasing altitude. Even going down 500ft can start to reverse the effects of hypoxia on the body to the point the effect is almost gone even though that reduction in height is taking you from 20,000ft ot 19,500ft.

How do you model this in a sim? Don't bother would be my first guess.

[Former_Older]

(shakes head)

I had thought I made it abundantly clear that I understood that O2 starvation is different for each person. I thought I had illustrated my understanding of that several times. I believe I recall mentioning actual symptoms that each person may or may not actually experience, and that it was up to each pilot to note his personal symptoms, and I think I mentioned unique circumstance for O2 starvation

I guess I may have neglected to do all those things, but damned if it doesn't also look like I posted all that. So I'm not sure where you're coming from, mondo. Why you feel you must point that out as if I was not aware is something I cannot understand

As far as not bothering to model it, O2 use was a very vital aspect of flight in WWII. It was as critical as weather and combat. You feel that the entire spectrum of O2 related modeling as it regards combat flight simming is best left alone.

Personally, it is my belief that a sophisticated flight sim needs to model this to some degree or other. The dynamics this model could effect include not simply the question of whether or not a pilot can function. You are apaprently not considering some other aspects of the sim which could be diretcly influenced by O2 use and it's model:

1) damage model- the O2 system should be part of the damage model. BoB is supposed to be highly modeled. Why ignore a critical aspect of flight?
2) ground service- time on ground to re-fuel, re-arm, and replenish oxygen. Also- high pressure or low pressure bottles? Historically it mattered
3) altitude an aircraft can operate- without an O2 system, it is not reasonable for an open cockpit plane to operate at the same altitude a late war plane could. Likewise, it is also not reasonable for a plane with a malfunctioning or damaged O2 system to operate at it's maximum altitude. This could also put a player's aircraft at a maximum altitude that a disadvantage occurs at.

You say that it's better not to have that modeled in some way. I disagree. You feel that if it cannot be modeled for each unique circumstance then it's not worth doing, if I understand you correctly. There is enough critical importance to the use of O2 systems in these aircraft that it would be negligent to call the sim 'sophisticated' but not model O2 use

Even the introduction of oxygen systems would be a step forward from not having it, even if it was a rudimentary one. Not modeling O2 use is like not modeling weather- O2 was a pilot killer, just like enemy aircraft and bad weather. Anything that threatens the life of the aircrew seems to me to be something a combat flight sim should consider. How we should advocate not modeling O2 use is baffling to me

[ECV56_LeChuck]

I want to see more posts like this rather than complaints.

[ruxtmp]

I think it could be easily but somewhat unrealistically modeled. The whole O2 starvation, fatigue, and G modeling would be an approximation in any sim.

Each pilot (character) would start with a base human model. There would be four models rookie, average, veteran, and ace. The rookie would start with a model that depicts the average human. Each progressive level would be ever so slightly better. As you gain experience your physical attributes would increase (incentive to not get shot down). Also it would be nice to have some of your phyical characteristics impact your human model. A fatigued pilot does not respond well to lack of O2 or Gs. Also wounded pilots should have their ability to perform functions liited. I know in IL2 that with a red haze i can continue to fight with no ill effect for at least a few minutes.

Modelling lack of O2 could be like some of the concusion effects in COD4 (losing vision and ringing ears) or maybe something like a simple text saying you are having difficulty breathing.

[mondo]

Originally Posted by Former_Older

(shakes head)

I had thought I made it abundantly clear that I understood that O2 starvation is different for each person.

Apologies, I was agreeing but it didn't really come across that way after re-reading what I wrote.

I'm undecided if it should be modelled given your points but how do you work faults in the system? Given there will be no random faults in Storm of War then it would have to be down to damage taken by the aircraft. I don't know if a refuel and rearm in co-ops is on the card but I assume in the time taken to refuel and rearm a plane getting an O2 bottle changed over wouldn't be a problem, if it needed to be changed at all until the end of the day (does this sort of data exist in pilot manuals for the Spitfire, Hurricane and 109?). Especially given a sortie might only last an hour or so.

I'd like to see oxygen bottles modelled from a DM point of view, simply because one exploding is fatal is allot of cases but with the oxygen system, assuming the pipes and whatnot are modelled its a case of how do you let it affect the pilot? I guess like the negative/positive G model already in IL2, where each pilot has the same limits.