Any reason to use Ball Ammo?

[Roblex]

I am getting conflicting advice from players. Some say that with close convergence ball ammo does more damage while others say ball ammo is a hangover from when the RAF did not have enough AP & Incendiary to use it in all belts otherwise they would not have used ball at all. I have to say my ignorant brain would say anything that ball can do, AP can do better.
Similarly they never would have bothered with observer rounds as incendiary gave visual feedback plus damage.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by Roblex

I am getting conflicting advice from players. Some say that with close convergence ball ammo does more damage while others say ball ammo is a hangover from when the RAF did not have enough AP & Incendiary to use it in all belts otherwise they would not have used ball at all. I have to say my ignorant brain would say anything that ball can do, AP can do better.
Similarly they never would have bothered with observer rounds as incendiary gave visual feedback plus damage.

I use ball ammo as it's part of the default (and actually 100% historical) loadout. The Mk.VII ball is actually very effective in the game - you can shoot off parts of the target, even bomber engine if you hit well.

In real life, ball was just standard infantry ammunition (except more strict quality control) and pretty effective in numbers when you hit the target. It is true though that ball was used due to stock problems with other specialised ammunition, especially new DeWilde incendiary. But there was plenty of the others, RAF have had tons of them as it was ammo made since 1920s or ealrier. It was just a matter of mixing a versatile and effective types of ammo. Later, they added more deWilde as there was more of it available.

AP was actually dissapointing and ball was apparently doing a better job in real life. Germans stopped using the AP for fighters after they learned they're not very effective against modern planes in Spain. They only used AP for 110s for ground attack roles. The problem was that the round deflected as it penetrated the thin metal skin of the a/c and never made it to the actual armour plate. So too much energy was lost at the first impact with the aircrafts shell and the trajectory was changed so much it turned the round innefective.

AP is still pretty effective in game - mind you the game is modelled perfectly regarding to RAF ammo, just the effect in the actual game is not what it was in real life necesarily. We have to distinguish between historical info and what works in game.

For the game:

Ball Mk.VII - lots of damage, parts shot off (ailerons, elevators, whole engines..), good with PKs when you hit the cockpit.

AP - plenty of damage - lots of oil leaks, knackered engines, PKs

White Incendiary Tracer (Buckingham) - more effective than DeWilde in pyro effect - lots of engine and fuel tank fires

DW - slightly worse than Buckingham, same effects, nice flash on impact

You will PK with anything if you actually hit the cockpit and any ammo will perforate radiator if you hit it. I personally find the default belt a good mix of everything and it's more about how you hit him and where rather than if you use more AP or ball.

Above info based on No.401s research and empiric testing.

[Roblex]

Thanks for all that. The only thing I am still not sure of is,you say ball does a lot of damage to ailerons & even engines but you
also say that the game does not model the deflection problem with AP so surely that would mean that AP is always better than ball? Ball
can only damage things by making holes and AP would make as big a hole plus it would also do more damage to harder structures that ball
does not. Is there a flaw in my logic?

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by Roblex

Thanks for all that. The only thing I am still not sure of is,you say ball does a lot of damage to ailerons & even engines but you
also say that the game does not model the deflection problem with AP so surely that would mean that AP is always better than ball? Ball
can only damage things by making holes and AP would make as big a hole plus it would also do more damage to harder structures that ball
does not. Is there a flaw in my logic?

There is no logic, you have to keep the real life qualities of the ammo types seprarated to what they are in game. I answered your question and you still say you're not sure. Of course you're not, that's why you were asking... So again:

I didn't say AP deflection is not modelled at all, it's just not as big issue like it was in real life. IN THIS GAME, Ball Mk.VII is better than AP for shooting bits off and doing lots of internal damage. It has nothing to do with real life logic. Same for IT ammo that is more effective than De Wilde IN THIS GAME. In real life tests, DW was twice as likely to cause fire.

If you still not sure, try them one by one, pure AP and pure Ball (and so on) in all guns and see what damage you are causing. There is a script somewhere around here that will display what damage exactly you're doing to your target. This all has been already done by No.401 chaps (Catseye and Wolverine) and their research is what I based my reply on.

[Roblex]

Thankyou. I understand now. I will put the ball ammo back in, at least in part, but will stick with DW because I don't like having tracers announce my poor gunnery attempts before I can do some damage

[ATAG_Snapper]

Originally Posted by Roblex

Thankyou. I understand now. I will put the ball ammo back in, at least in part, but will stick with DW because I don't like having tracers announce my poor gunnery attempts before I can do some damage

+1

I can't add to Robo's thorough answer, I can only say "Yep!" But like yourself I've opted to take out the white incendiary tracer -- my 109 opponents react VERY quickly to tracers flying by them. DeWilde is not as effective, but I keep some in the belt with Ball #7 because they help confirm when you'r on target. Having no tracer usually buys me an extra second or two to adjust my aim before the enemy flips away.

[SEE]

The RAF default belt (you can check its make up in FMB) uses both observer and Tracer - seems odd how the defualt belts for each gun are made up.

Anyway, here is the script for giving on screen damage. Just copy and past into a notepad file and use the same name as the mission you want to associate it with but the extension must be .cs ( i.e if the mission file is weaponstest.mis then the notepad file will be weaponstest.cs and placed inj the same folder as the mis file.)


using System;
using maddox.game;
using maddox.game.world;

public class Mission : maddox.game.AMission
{

public override void OnAircraftDamaged(int missionNumber, string shortName, AiAircraft Aircraft, AiDamageInitiator DamageFrom, part.NamedDamageTypes WhatDamaged)
{
base.OnAircraftDamaged(missionNumber, shortName, Aircraft, DamageFrom, WhatDamaged);

if (DamageFrom.Player != null )
{
GamePlay.gpLogServer (null, "{0} hits {1} : {2} \n", new object [] {DamageFrom.Player, shortName, WhatDamaged});//Test
}

}
}

[28_Condor]

Originally Posted by Robo.

I personally find the default belt a good mix of everything and it's more about how you hit him and where rather than if you use more AP or ball.

Good point, Robo

I'm currently testing various combinations of ammunition, researching I found this reference:

Another source for the Battle of Britain armament gives four guns with ball, two with AP and two with incendiaries (presumably Mk VI) with four of the last 25 rounds being tracer (presumably Mk IV incendiary/tracer) to tell the pilot he was running out of ammunition.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/BoB.htm

As you talked about the distance of what works in game and in real life I doubt ... what do you think?