The MOD mentality....

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

What Beowolff means, may be true - many things become better or nicer in remembering.
But beside all the nostalgic feelings there ist one valid fact to me: I had more fun back then! And while the game itself, no matter if stock or modded, seems still to be a very good toy to have fun with, the only big difference between now and then, is:
The community is not united anymore!
I see this as the main problem, and this had been caused by the hacking and the following free modding.

[Asheshouse]

Originally Posted by JtD

That's not true, the number of players in hyperlobby was far larger before mods than it is now.

I would accept that is true but it does not alter the fact that numbers on servers had started to significantly reduce before mods came along.

Originally Posted by JtD

Nowadays you usually have around 150 players in Hyperlobby, enough to populate about 5 servers, but it's hard to find two reasonably populated servers that actually run the version of the game you want to play. And the there's a good chance that neither of the two servers running your version also have a set-up to your likings. And that, imho, sucks.

The servers with greater numbers of users are normally running UP3 mods. Servers with no mods allowed are in less demand, based on numbers seen in Hyperlobby. If you use UP3 its not hard to find a server which is reasonably populated. --- and I'm not trying to promote UP3. I actually use the HSFX mod Pack mainly offline and use un-modded online, but online activity is limited by poor internet speeds.

Originally Posted by EJGr.Ost_Caspar

The community is not united anymore!

That is a fundamental problem, but the overall size of the community today is because of continuing developments in both official and unofficial addons. If mods did not exist then yes the community would be united, but the overall size of the community would shrink considerably.

[JtD]

Originally Posted by Asheshouse

I would accept that is true but it does not alter the fact that numbers on servers had started to significantly reduce before mods came along.

Sure, that's true as well.

The servers with greater numbers of users are normally running UP3 mods.

None of the servers I'm primarily interested in is running UP3. Which is a good thing, as UP3 isn't my cup of tea. But even if it was and my taste in servers was different - weekdays there were hardly more than two or three of them showing reasonably busy, same as with stock or HSFX.

[mkubani]

One thing holds true in my opinion. As soon as you open (any) software where end users are able to create and modify its content, they are creating diversity which will effect their multiplayer interaction. Compatibility was never an issue with the closed IL-2 as far as I remember.

Second, you may or may not agree with me, but for me the biggest drawback is that the IL-2 community forums topics seem to have shifted away from virtual flying discussions. There are many posts regarding modding IL-2, but so much less talks regarding actual virtual combat flying. It feels a bit to me like those car tuning communities, where you spend more time in the garage than actually driving the car.

Just my 2 cents. Peace.

[Jumoschwanz]

Condemning all people who make MODS for IL2 would definitely be wrong on my part and no different than condemning someone for their race or religion.

People who do things for the love of it are a benefit to the world, people who do things to put themselves or special interests forward have a negative impact, and those two forces exist in every human endeavor.

A lot of those into modding IL2 may have never known the sim before mods for it existed.

I just believe that IL2 would be better off if those with the talent and interest to work on IL2 had the patience to all work on it together with the blessing of it's creators on new official patches, instead of breaking off in different directions any time their favorite aircraft doesn't work the way they think it should, or they do not have the patience to wait for something to be in an official patch.

If that would have happened then during the slow times on Hyperlobby, the few that are left there could think a lot more about flying together with others and having fun and less about installing the game, who they can and can not fly with and which version of IL2 is better etc..

[Asheshouse]

Originally Posted by mkubani

It feels a bit to me like those car tuning communities, where you spend more time in the garage than actually driving the car.

How true

[Beowolff]

yes, ^^^ i agree with that also. usually much more time spent tinkering/fixing than actual playing (for me personally, anyway.) ---which i sadly bemoan...yet because i have tasked myself to help others mod and be actively engaged in modding and helping 'teach' others to mod, i have little choice but to carry on in that direction (at least for now---though physical hardships such as health problems may soon slow or 'change' that.)

but... remember, we modders on our modding forums may 'sound' as if all we discuss is modding, but that's like the 'tip' of an iceberg as to what's going on around us. for every vocal guy that talks of modding/modding/modding... there's twenty more 'silent' members that never say a word about it. and there's likely fifty more non-members browsing our sites picking up an occasional mod to fly here and there that we don't hear from either.

so yes, it might 'seem' as if everybody's yapping about modding this or that, but in RL there's definitely more mod users than mod talkers.

[BadAim]

Originally Posted by Jumoschwanz

Condemning all people who make MODS for IL2 would definitely be wrong on my part and no different than condemning someone for their race or religion.

People who do things for the love of it are a benefit to the world, people who do things to put themselves or special interests forward have a negative impact, and those two forces exist in every human endeavor.

A lot of those into modding IL2 may have never known the sim before mods for it existed.

I just believe that IL2 would be better off if those with the talent and interest to work on IL2 had the patience to all work on it together with the blessing of it's creators on new official patches, instead of breaking off in different directions any time their favorite aircraft doesn't work the way they think it should, or they do not have the patience to wait for something to be in an official patch.

If that would have happened then during the slow times on Hyperlobby, the few that are left there could think a lot more about flying together with others and having fun and less about installing the game, who they can and can not fly with and which version of IL2 is better etc..

While your words are pretty mate, your original post did exactly what you are bemoaning, you took the actions of a single fool and broad brushed everyone who you perceive be like him. You are mostly wrong about your so called mod mentality; the majority of Mods add new content to IL2, not modify existing content.

WD is a tit, pure and simple, and I take it as a personal insult if you think any thing he has to say in anyway represents what any person who I associate with thinks, feels or does.

I expect better from you.

[BadAim]

In hindsight, I think the above might be a bit harsh, I don't feel any differently, but it's a bit harsh nevertheless.

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by Jumoschwanz

Apparently you did not even read what I said. I never said anything against the official patches of IL2. So in effect you are talking to yourself right?
Those that were not around to see the fall of the CFS2 online community, and those who were not around in the early years of IL2 when the entire online community all flew the same version of IL2 probably can not see what was discarded and lost so that a few impatient people could have some extra or special aircraft, toys and effects.
The online population on Hyperlobby is way, way down compared to what it was before MODS.
When all IL2 pilots(except cheaters) were flying the same version of IL2, you could join any server and fly with anyone else, all squads could fly and compete with each other, and all the forum discussions were centered around one thing. Hyperlobby would have over a thousand flying on it on weekends and even sometimes during the week. You could be reasonably sure that nine out of ten people you were flying with on any server were not using hacks or cheats. The official version of IL2 was a standard that existed for the community to follow and glue them together.
Wasn't that a lot to lose?
The online IL2 experience and community has been in steady decline since mods have become common. Online population is way down, and even that small population is divided into fragments flying different versions of IL2.
Newcomers to IL2 are faced with not just figuring out how to install the official version of the sim, but they are courted by the various special interests that make up the different mod factions each crowing how their MOD pack is the best, so they have that choice to make, plus more software to install and more bugs to deal with and have to do more footwork to figure out how to fix bugs. This makes IL2 much less attractive than it was pre-MOD.
These same new pilots have no guarantee that they will ever fly with or against anyone that is using the same version of the sim they are, or even if it is the same version or hack, that extra hacks have not been inserted into it by it's individual user. In the old days we called these people cheats.
What was lost was liked and important to a lot of people.
If you go look at any old pre-mod forum banter that may still be in the archives of various websites for IL2, you will see the same arguments that you see now with the release of new patches. This is not good enough, that is no good, why wasn't this fixed or included or why was this porked?
Some of the complainers will point out something legitimate, but most are simply individuals with limited knowledge of aircraft and WWII history, or the specific subject they are complaining about wishing that IL2 met their ideal wet-dreams or matched their favorite Hollywood movie, or they are too impatient to wait for a small team of developers to get to their special interest.
So these people made their own version of IL2, Squads adopted the hacks that suited their favorite aircraft and maps and switched their servers to suit them, and divided we fall.
Cliffs of Dover is interesting and offers hope of getting an online community that is all on the same page again. I have flown it and had fun with it but I really need a new computer and OS etc. to be serious about it. If it is hacked and modded before I get the money together to spend on it, then I will just keep it in my wallet and not even begin with it.

While I agree with much of what you have said .. the fact is that this is an old debate that has been beaten to death ad infinitum.

The mods are here and have been here publicly for 5 years and it will NEVER go back to the way it was ... once that happened everything changed.

Not all the mods are of poor quality either. From where I sit, from my limited understanding, the fact that for better or worse one mod group has decided to operate within the parameters of TD while others have not .. for me that makes a choice of where to get my modded sim from crystal. The demise of the population on HL while I am certain may be influenced by mods to a degree, it is also influenced by the fact that this is a 10 year old sim. If I am not mistaken it has the largest community of any 10+ year old sim on the market .. what few there are that are still around.

+1 to what BW said too...

While mods have definitely changed the sim IMO they have improved it as much as they may have hurt it.. Look at this... we have 6DoF in the stock sim now.. and that was one of the earliest mods to come out .. There are so many great mods out there that had nothing at all to do with FMs or DMs or new planes .. and I don't care what anyone says.. The disaster that many, myself included , expected when this sim was modded based on our experiences in other sims DID NOT HAPPEN. Yes there were issues and there probably still are given human nature. No we do not have the security that we once had, but we have a D@MN good product... STOCK... and I do not believe we would have what we have now had the sim not been modded. You are an old timer.. just look at 4.11 and compare it to IL2.. the original... it is MILES beyond IL2. Not only in terms of aircraft and features but sheer functionality.

Personally I prefer HSFX as a mod pack.. I have my issues with some other mod packs and what I have seen with them so I have chosen not to use them .. others think they are the best thing out there.. but we all have choices. I think that incorporating the features that are now in 4.11 have gone a long way towards making the stock sim more appealing ..

People have made excuses why they don't want to fly this sim anymore .. I say if you want the community to be more robust you have to be a part of it to make that happen. I am still amazed at the fact that this 10+ year old product can still make me go wow.