Requesting help for evasive maneuver.

[Flanker1985]

Please help, ever since the 4.11 patch came out, I got problem dodge the fight attack. Can anyone help me out a bit and sharing some videos of how to do better evasive maneuver, please?
Can't thanks enough.

[IceFire]

My suggestion is to get to know air combat manoeuvring (ACM) better so that you are more proficient both defensively and offensively. The more time spent in a potentially offensive position the better. Being on the defense at range is a manageable situation but most don't recognize that they are in this situation until they are what is really a "guns defense" type situation where the enemy is behind them and in a firing position.

Wikipedia is actually a decent starting place: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers

Some of the key types of moves that I tend to employ:

Negative Knife Edge - Basically you roll 90 degrees until one wing is facing the sky and the other the ground. Normally the lift vector is now pointed towards the horizon in the direction of the top of your aircraft, however, this is where you push forward on the stick and go in the opposite direction that your plane would normally do. Its a good quick move when your opponent sees you rolling into a defensive turn and your motion takes you in the opposite direction. Timing is key as this is a deception to evade an attack rather than a solution in itself.

Rolling Scissors - Putting your plane into a barrel roll and slowing it down so that the attacking aircraft is now sucked into your roll is another way of defending from an attack. The idea is to fly tighter and go slower without loosing control so that he shoots out in front of you and you are now potentially in the attacking position.

Spit S - A simple one in the bag of tricks that works well on aircraft with high roll rates. A FW190 or a Yak is ideal here. A the opportune moment you roll inverted and dive away steeply.


Those are a few... there are others. As always, team tactics works best so a wingman backing you up is a great thing to have. Also the best defense is, as they say, a good offense. Being in a superior position either from a speed or altitude perspective (energy) is key to winning a fight. If you can dominate the fight from the beginning then the enemy will never have a guns solution that would even threaten you. That takes time, patience, and some luck.

[Flanker1985]

Originally Posted by IceFire

My suggestion is to get to know air combat manoeuvring (ACM) better so that you are more proficient both defensively and offensively. The more time spent in a potentially offensive position the better. Being on the defense at range is a manageable situation but most don't recognize that they are in this situation until they are what is really a "guns defense" type situation where the enemy is behind them and in a firing position.

Wikipedia is actually a decent starting place: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers

Some of the key types of moves that I tend to employ:

Negative Knife Edge - Basically you roll 90 degrees until one wing is facing the sky and the other the ground. Normally the lift vector is now pointed towards the horizon in the direction of the top of your aircraft, however, this is where you push forward on the stick and go in the opposite direction that your plane would normally do. Its a good quick move when your opponent sees you rolling into a defensive turn and your motion takes you in the opposite direction. Timing is key as this is a deception to evade an attack rather than a solution in itself.

Rolling Scissors - Putting your plane into a barrel roll and slowing it down so that the attacking aircraft is now sucked into your roll is another way of defending from an attack. The idea is to fly tighter and go slower without loosing control so that he shoots out in front of you and you are now potentially in the attacking position.

Spit S - A simple one in the bag of tricks that works well on aircraft with high roll rates. A FW190 or a Yak is ideal here. A the opportune moment you roll inverted and dive away steeply.


Those are a few... there are others. As always, team tactics works best so a wingman backing you up is a great thing to have. Also the best defense is, as they say, a good offense. Being in a superior position either from a speed or altitude perspective (energy) is key to winning a fight. If you can dominate the fight from the beginning then the enemy will never have a guns solution that would even threaten you. That takes time, patience, and some luck.

Thanks mate. But can you do a few in a video so I can see? Please~!!!
I don't need offensive maneuver, just defensive. Especially from aircrafts like LaGG-3 where you have no rear visibility.

[Laurwin]

From what I remember Lagg-3 is a little bit outmatched by contemporary German fighters in flight characteristics.
This is very bad thing if you end up in disadvantegous situations. But it still, doesn't mean you should just roll over and surrender.

I recently watched an instruction video about game Falcon 3.0. There was real life American jet fighter pilot giving the lesson. He said, that ultimately being on the defensive is not a very good position to be in, with any aircraft.

There is no single manouver, that you can learn from a rulebook, that always is good, that will always save ur ass when you are defensive. This is because, being defensive is bad thing, in air combat. (1v1)

Guns defenses are for avoiding guns, but they on their own are not some magical manouver which will give you victory (usually). They will buy you TIME (time to live, to survive even a little bit longer)
So in this sense Icefire is correct indeed.

Lagg-3 vs bf109f4. This is not exactly speaking, 1v1, "gentlemen's fight".

Reason is simply that bf109 has so many advantages, and I don't think lagg3 has strictly speaking any advantage except at low altitude turning fight (this is theoretically best engine performance area, for lagg3)

On the other hand, you probably stand a beter chance of defeating bf109, 1v1, when you (lagg-3) have the altitude advantage over bf109 at the start of the fight.

Kill him quickly though, because your probability of winning start lowering with increase in the time (if the fight stays at medium-high altitude where bf109 has biggest performance advantage over lagg-3)
If the bf109 makes mistake, stalling from medium altitude to low altitude, then you can get energy advantage to yourself.

If the bf109 starts making big mistakes (like losing too much energy) then the fight becomes easier for Lagg-3 to win. (because bf-109 is better at energy fighting, because good climb rate, speed and diving characteristic). This means that bf109 is able to regain lost energy back at fast rate, if he actually does choose to regain energy (climb, or fly straight with increasing speed)

But, indeed, Icefire already gave you practical examples. Common mistakes in defensive manouvers is the wrong timing of the manouver (too early, and the enemy predicts your movements and is able to adjust in time).
If the defensive manouver is too late, well then you are probably dead already hehe...

What other defense moves could there be? Some moves not yet mentioned would be simply using full rudder to "skid forward", and scissor at the same time. I suppose, the scissor is almost like a "fake scissor" because you will in reality mainly rely on the skidding of the rudder. This will dramatically slow your own plane, and cause overshoot, if the attacker doesn't realize what is going on. I don't really know how to do it too well myself, embarrassing I know, but maybe Icefire can explain it better (for a fast moving attacker it can sometimes be disorientating enough).

Snap stall is another staple move, but the downside of it is that it robs you of your own energy as well, but if it works, then you get angular advantage, you get behind the enemy's 3-9 line. Then you must simply recover from the snap stall also, at very low altitudes it can be deadly if you don't recover fast enough.

the so-called Hartmann defence I forgot exactly how it is performed, but the intention is to cause an overshoot situation also. This manouver was a real manouver sometimes performed by hartmann and you maybe able to google it.

Well, you should also read the online IL-2 pilot's guide to air combat. Here's a link for free version pdf http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/.../inpursuit.pdf

[Laurwin]

That online guide had a feisty paragraph about guns defense also. From page 61 forward.

Obviously guns defense, you want to survive from being shot at with cannon. This is first objective always. But like it says in the article, guns defense is not the key to victory yet.

Scissors battle is actually an offensive minded manouver, where YOU KILL the enemy if it works properly.

-When starting scenario is, enemy at your 6 oclock. This is clearly bad starting situation btw. Usually in these kind of situations, you are either co-Energy, or you are at enegy disadvantage. Rarely you have energy advantage when you get surprised like that.

-you must survive first attack

-you must kill the enemy

-or you must escape the battle

(or you get lucky when a teammate helps you and kills the enemy)


Sometimes, it is actually possible to simply escape from the battle. For example if you fly the faster plane. For example, hawker tempest is faster than focke wulf A9, you can sometimes simply run away.

In a situation like that, where you can run away, you can still do small "guns defenses", or "jinks" where you don't fly completely straight into one direction, but you are still flying fast enough to escape, further and further (beyond enemy's gun convergence range, range where firepower is less lethal in some cases)

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Flanker1985

Thanks mate. But can you do a few in a video so I can see? Please~!!!
I don't need offensive maneuver, just defensive. Especially from aircrafts like LaGG-3 where you have no rear visibility.

I'm not really setup to record videos right now so that would be a lot of work.

YouTube some of these terms and have a look for yourself. I'm sure you'll find something that you're lookingfor.

Remember... offensive maneuvering is important so do not dismiss it lightly. You might think you need more defensive but thats a mistake. When on the defensive against a competent foe you're already dead. You always want to maintain a neutral or offensive posture and not be in a situation where the enemy is on the attack. Knowing the right kinds of offensive moves will ensure that you don't get sucked into making a mistake and being put on the defensive.

Sometimes you're faced with no choice but generally speaking these are important things.

Also keep in mind that the LaGG against contemporary fighters is always at a disadvantage. It's simply too heavy and without enough engine power to compete against the Bf109F or G series. The LaGG is good at absorbing some battle damage and its not in a horrible position versus these but the way to win in a LaGG is to ensure you arrive into combat with altitude superiority and that you attack in a smart manner so as it limit the Bf109s effectiveness.

Avoid close in dogfighting in a LaGG. Again...not enough engine power versus the aircrafts weight so any moves that burn a lot of energy you want to avoid. The Bf109 will make up the energy loss almost immediately while you'll be waiting... and thats when they get you.

This is a good aircraft to learn on actually. It's capable but inferior so that when you do get to a better aircraft like the later Yak or La-5 series you'll have fewer bad habits.

[Igo kyu]

Originally Posted by IceFire

When on the defensive against a competent foe you're already dead.

The statistic is that most pilots who were shot down didn't know they were being attacked. I believe the corollary of this is that in the real world, defensive manouvers, done properly, work.

Turn toward the enemy (if he's behind you, turn to the side on which he is relative to your tail), and keep turning until he's gone past, if an attacker blacks out, his attack is done, whereas if a defender blacks out, and his attacker doesn't, the attacker has gone past so you've some time to recover. If the attacker is in the better turning aircraft and the speed is too slow for blackouts, get more speed and get out of range, but basically keep turning, and keep rolling, even if he can catch your turn he can't catch your roll. Rolling without turning is no use, that's just fancy flying in a straight line. Once he's past, then it's your turn to attack.

A big mistake I often make is thinking he's past before he actually is, that usually ends badly.

Also keep in mind that the LaGG against contemporary fighters is always at a disadvantage. It's simply too heavy and without enough engine power to compete against the Bf109F or G series. The LaGG is good at absorbing some battle damage and its not in a horrible position versus these but the way to win in a LaGG is to ensure you arrive into combat with altitude superiority and that you attack in a smart manner so as it limit the Bf109s effectiveness.

Avoid close in dogfighting in a LaGG. Again...not enough engine power versus the aircrafts weight so any moves that burn a lot of energy you want to avoid.

The LaGG is not a boom and zoom fighter. Which means (against the 109) it is a turn and burn fighter. Get to zero altitude (plus a wings width of height, so you don't crash), and turn faster than the 109s can. If they come down at you they will be faster than you, which means they have to risk flying into the ground to fire at you, if they stay at ground level you will catch them in the turn, so they usually don't. Against the AI always take out the wingmen first, they don't fight unless you attack the leader, and the leader's already fighting so you lose nothing.

[Laurwin]

Defensive manouvers can work in real life,, because they rely on human anatomy. (duh!)

Many of them rely on neurological processes and responses of human pilot in the enemy aircraft.

Isn't this the basic reason why a manouver like the already described "negative knife edge" work in the first place?

Granted, these manouvers usually will not give you a ready kill on a silver platter. (except e.g. big mistake of the attacker, and a killshot from snapshot in scissors fight, from the defender.)

You must work for your kill in most other cases?

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by Igo kyu

The statistic is that most pilots who were shot down didn't know they were being attacked. I believe the corollary of this is that in the real world, defensive manouvers, done properly, work.

What about the guys that knew what hit them? I'd say if this gives us anything then it is: Defensive maneuvres CAN work. But there is a counter to any defensive maneuvre, and if the attacker guesses right you are toast anyway. You can sit in the best rolling plane in this game and get the timings of your rolling scissors absolutely brilliantly right - and the enemy makes a no-nonsense cut across your manuvre and you're dead anyway.

[Flanker1985]

Originally Posted by IceFire

I'm not really setup to record videos right now so that would be a lot of work.

YouTube some of these terms and have a look for yourself. I'm sure you'll find something that you're lookingfor.

Remember... offensive maneuvering is important so do not dismiss it lightly. You might think you need more defensive but thats a mistake. When on the defensive against a competent foe you're already dead. You always want to maintain a neutral or offensive posture and not be in a situation where the enemy is on the attack. Knowing the right kinds of offensive moves will ensure that you don't get sucked into making a mistake and being put on the defensive.

Sometimes you're faced with no choice but generally speaking these are important things.

Also keep in mind that the LaGG against contemporary fighters is always at a disadvantage. It's simply too heavy and without enough engine power to compete against the Bf109F or G series. The LaGG is good at absorbing some battle damage and its not in a horrible position versus these but the way to win in a LaGG is to ensure you arrive into combat with altitude superiority and that you attack in a smart manner so as it limit the Bf109s effectiveness.

Avoid close in dogfighting in a LaGG. Again...not enough engine power versus the aircrafts weight so any moves that burn a lot of energy you want to avoid. The Bf109 will make up the energy loss almost immediately while you'll be waiting... and thats when they get you.

This is a good aircraft to learn on actually. It's capable but inferior so that when you do get to a better aircraft like the later Yak or La-5 series you'll have fewer bad habits.

No, it's not a lot of work to record video at all. Just use the in game track

Also I think I am giving you the wrong idea about my request. I am not a rookie. I have been flying this game for over 8 years now. It's just since the 4.11, the developing team upgraded the AI, and now the AI planes are not stupid anymore So I need a bit advanced lessens for refreshment purposes.
And that is why I want to see tracks and videos. So I can understand the actual logic in practices.