Fw 190 - numbers for A-8 and A-9

Crumpp · #1 03-12-2013, 10:33 AM

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Anyway, true that the TS was cleared for 1.82 ata later on, in fact the engine's been modelled with, but it was included without because the A-9 in game is a designated a 1944 aircraft.

The FW-190A9 was most common of the Antons in 1945.

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Production Details for the FW 190 A-9
Just over 900 FW 190 A-9s were built in late 1944 and early 1945. Focke-Wulf at Cottbus was responsible for most of these aircraft. Blocks built by this factory ranged from 202 360 to 207 240 (including a number of gaps). Focke-Wulf, Aslau built aircraft from W.Nr 490 020 to 490 050. An unknown manufacturer produced 560 020 to 560 030. Mimetall at Erfurt built 750 070 to 750 160. Finally, Norddeutsche Dornier at Wismar built three blocks, with aircraft from W.Nr 980 150 to 980 590 (with gaps).[1]

fruitbat · #2 03-12-2013, 03:44 PM

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Originally Posted by Crumpp

The FW-190A9 was most common of the Antons in 1945.

Heres a breakdown on the numbers and dates produced (930 A9's in total). Looks to me that they were producing A8's and A9's in the last 3 months of '44, with A9 production lasting just 1 month longer, before it was all switched to Doras.

More A8's were made during there concurrent production runs than A9's.

Of course, in 45 the production shifted mainly to the Dora ,

Crumpp · #3 03-12-2013, 04:46 PM

Fruitbat,

Just about all the aircraft produced in contracted block to be on the production line in November and December 1944 were being OPERATED in January 1945.

In otherwords, most of the FW-190A9 production is in use in 1945.

That is typical for all production aircraft.

White 1 for example, rolled off the production line at NDW, went through a week of acceptance flights to ensure contract compliance before being transferred to the Luftwaffe, then went to a distribution node where it sat for 3 weeks before being issued to JG5.

The last aircraft in White 1's production block rolled off the assembly line on the 20th June. The contract block was from May to June 44. After being assembled, White 1 spent until the 13th of July in test and acceptance flights before becoming part of the Luftwaffe inventory.

It was then shipped to the depot in Anklam where it was finally issued to JG5 in mid-August 1944.

Any production block that you see means a lag of ~30-60 days to Operational use.

I know you don't deal with reality very much in airplanes so reading the production block dates mistaking them for operational dates is expected. It is very rare that anything is "poofed" into existence operationally. There is always some lag time.

fruitbat · #4 03-12-2013, 05:02 PM

Crump read the production dates for the A8 again.

I completely understand the fact about production dates being different to operational dates, its bloody obvious, don't be so patronising.

The simple fact is more A8's were produced during the A9's production run than A9's, its in black and white for you to read if you weren't so obtuse.

Therefore your claim that the A9 was the most prevalent is clearly not true, as these A8's would be coming into service at the same time, as they were made at the same time. Its not rocket science, i'm not sure what you don't understand, except what you choose not to.

MaxGunz · #5 03-12-2013, 06:22 PM

Can production tell what was flown? They didn't have gas for all that were made before the end and there were losses on ground as well as in the air.

I guess I should be happy that as many records survived as did.

Crumpp · #6 03-13-2013, 01:24 AM

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Therefore your claim that the A9 was the most prevalent is clearly not true,

JtD · #7 03-13-2013, 05:22 AM

He's saying they were used in 1945, side by side with the 2500 A-8's that were built in parallel to the 900 A-9's.

Crumpp · #8 03-13-2013, 10:36 AM

There is no need to guess or read into the documents as per the usual suspects.

It is clear the FW190A9 is the replacement Anton for the FW-190A8.

Are we really having this discussion?

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side by side with the 2500 A-8's that were built in parallel to the 900 A-9's.

You also do not have the production details for the blocks. Almost all the FW-190A8's produced in the later part of 1944 are all weather variants or assault ships.

Oskar Bösch went thru 13 FW190A8's during his time with IV/JG3 Sturm. His unit had a 500% casualty rate.

Both are specialized variants for specific units and neither is designed as an air superiority variant.

fruitbat · #9 03-13-2013, 11:10 AM

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Originally Posted by Crumpp

It certainly is true. More FW-190A9's were built than FW-190A3's!

What do A3's have to do with 1945, answer nothing.

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Originally Posted by Crumpp

So Fruitbat, what is your theory on the 900 examples of the FW-190A9 delivered to the Luftwaffe as to when they were used if it is not 1945?

Again you have reading comprehension problems. No where have i said they weren't used in 1945. I'm afraid if you can't read properly thats your own problem, not mine.

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Originally Posted by JtD

He's saying they were used in 1945, side by side with the 2500 A-8's that were built in parallel to the 900 A-9's.

Exactly.

Simply fact is that in 1945 more A8's were used than A9's, because over two and a half times as many were made during the same time. No amount of trying to twist or ignore the facts can change this.

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Originally Posted by Crumpp

There is no need to guess or read into the documents as per the usual suspects.

Are yes, ignore any inconvenient information, seems oh so familiar.

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Originally Posted by Crumpp

You also do not have the production details for the blocks. Almost all the FW-190A8's produced in the later part of 1944 are all weather variants or assault ships.

Oskar Bösch went thru 13 FW190A8's during his time with IV/JG3 Sturm. His unit had a 500% casualty rate.

Both are specialized variants for specific units and neither is designed as an air superiority variant.

Doesn't change the fact that they were in existence, and that they were Fw190 A8's does it. Still more A8's flying in 45 than A9's.

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Originally Posted by Crumpp

Almost all the FW-190A8's produced in the later part of 1944 are all weather variants or assault ships.

Whilst irrelevant to the numbers of A8's vs A9's, this is at least interesting, source please.

Oh, and while we're at it, here is the reason why they were produced concurrently,

The reason they didn't completely switch to the A9, was because they simply didn't have enough of the engines that were used in the A9, hence why A8 production carried on.

Crumpp · #10 03-13-2013, 02:08 PM

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Fruitbat says:
Oh, and while we're at it, here is the reason why they were produced concurrently,

I fail to see how the obscure clippings from a second hand or third hand source have to do with Focke Wulf's original documents.

I have some old magazine clippings I can post too. Like yours, not necessarily factual, but read well.

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Fruitbat says:
because over two and a half times as many were made during the same time.

Looking at Focke Wulf's production quotas by variant, this is not correct for fighters. It applies to airframes but not the type used to replace the FW-190A8's in the Day fighter units for tangling with allied fighters.

All weather fighters are made for IFR flight, not much dog fighting going on so it is ok to load the type down with the navigation, de-icing, and automation that makes flight under such conditions workable.

Assault ships also are not designed to fight allied fighters, they are bomber killers designed to get close and give the pilot a reasonable change at survival. In this case, the airframe is expendable with the goal of achieving the destruction of a bomber and saving our pilot to fly again.
Both of these variants have much higher wastage rates than normal fighter variants. Does it make sense that at a normal logistical reserve rate you would need to produce much more of these types?
You do realize that just one of the Sturm units could consume an entire months production of FW-190A8 airframes?
You also don't seem to realize that NDW, Fiessler, and Ago are almost exclusively turning out assault ships.

NDW for example, only produced 40 FW-190A8 normal fighters during the entire war! That is the entire run of FW-190A8 fighters from them.

The other 530 FW-190A8's produced by NDW were assault ship variants.

The 1270 airframes produced by Fiessler were mostly assault ships...

Now let’s get an idea of how many airplanes we need to replace our losses. It does not have to be complicated, we only need reach a general conclusion.

In every quarter of the war, the Jadgwaffe experienced a 100% wastage rate. That is a fact. Every four months, every single engine fighter in the Jadgwaffe was replaced. Some pilots might not have to replace their individual aircraft but others had their aircraft replaced multiple times during that four month period. Statistically, it comes out to a 100% wastage rate per quarter. War is expensive.

Let's do some simple math to grasp the scale of the logistics required to maintain FW-190A8's as the main single engine fighter in 1945. First let’s look at the number of airframe available!

Let's use that rather inflated claim of 2500 airframes and Focke Wulf's ratio of all weather fighters as well as assault ships.

2500 * .85 = 375 Normal fighter Variant FW-190A8's...

About maybe 5 weeks give or take a week or two.

Conclusion, there is not enough normal fighter variants to meet wastage rates for more than one, maybe two months before FW-190A8 normal fighter variants become extinct.
Now let's look at the FW-190A9 and FW-190D9 production:

FW-190A9 normal fighter variants ~870
FW-190D9 normal fighter variants ~1700

That is 2570 airframes. The Jadgwaffe maintained an average strength of roughly 1760 fighters of which one third is FW-190's. Just a reasonable assumption made based on RLM dictates.

1760 * .3 = 528 FW-190 fighter variants in the force

2570 total FW-190 fighter variants produced / 528 FW190 fighter variants required = 4.86 months worth of fighter variants to experience a 100% loss rate per quarter. Wow, that takes us to the last few weeks of the war!!

So, the logistical math works out and we have enough FW-190 normal fighter variants to conclude that the FW-190A9 was the predominate Anton normal fighter variant in 1945 especially considering production of FW-190A8's switched almost exclusively to assault ship and all weather fighter production in the last quarter of 1944.

Works out pretty good especially considering a small number of both FW-190A9's and FW-190D9 were built as all weather fighters.

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Fruitbat says:
Whilst irrelevant to the numbers of A8's vs A9's, this is at least interesting

It is more than interesting; it is the reason for my statement that the FW-190A9 is more prevalent in 1945 as a normal fighter variant.

It is also based on original documentation from the source.