P-38 Stall Characteristics

Aviar · #1 01-28-2010, 04:49 AM

We know that the power stall characteristics of the P-38 are modelled incorrectly in IL-2. To see a real-life demonstration, check out this video. The relevant portion begins at 9:15.

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=...23/gq_2UmiCoJk

I was just wondering if anyone knows if Team Daidalos is planning on looking into this issue.

Aviar

AndyJWest · #2 01-28-2010, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aviar

We know that the power stall characteristics of the P-38 are modelled incorrectly in IL-2.

Actually, we don't. There seems to be something off about the single-engine torque characteristics, which I believe TD have acknowledged, and may look into at some point, given what has been posted on the Ubi forums in response to this issue.

The only other thing I know about the P-38 FM is that it attracts an inordinate amount of controversy. Whether this is due to a faulty FM, or to unrealistic expectations about the performance of the actual aircraft is open to question. I suspect that if it modelled the historical behaviour more accurately, there would be less demand for 'increased elevator response', 'better roll rate' etc, and more complaints that it was over-sensitive. I'm sure that the poor guys who had to fly it felt the same way, though a good few of them never had the opportunity to complain. It was a WWII aircraft, not a magic carpet. Like any other aircraft of the time, if you mishandled it, it would kill you. If you were unlucky it might kill you even if you got everything right. The IL-2 simulation is almost certainly not 100% correct, for this aircraft or any other. All the same, it is just a simulation. Be thankful.

Crumpp · #3 01-31-2010, 06:58 PM

Quote:

unrealistic expectations about the performance of the actual aircraft

That is 99% of it.

julian265 · #4 02-04-2010, 03:54 AM

^ Says someone who has flown IL2 once.

Sure, there's a fair amount of griping by new players about stalling and climbing, but there are plenty of legitimate gripes too. The 109K4 is almost unusable at high altitudes due to lack of elevator effectiveness (or excessive forces required) and the P38 shouldn't be experiencing elevator ineffectiveness below 10kft.

Crumpp · #5 02-04-2010, 11:29 AM

Quote:

^ Says someone who has flown IL2 once.

That is not true. I play your game in SEOW once a week for the past few weeks with one of our museum members.

99% of the gripes I read about stem from unrealistic expectations of the poster. It is not a dig that they have no experience outside of a game and a bookstore, just a fact. They read an anecdote and do not any real frame of reference to apply it. Therefore it becomes a blanket claim for a simplistic one size fits all mental model of how aircraft work.

What is even better is when they do this and are hostile about it! Nothing like hostility and ignorance on the internet to get yourself ignored.

JG27CaptStubing · #6 02-04-2010, 03:26 PM

I would say generally speaking most of the guys playing IL2 don't have experience in any of the planes in the game...

IceFire · #7 02-05-2010, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JG27CaptStubing

I would say generally speaking most of the guys playing IL2 don't have experience in any of the planes in the game...

Some of us know that and some others don't

It's true...there are many unrealistic expectations made out of historical propaganda passed down through books and TV shows and the like. We all know them so I won't mention any of them

Those turn in to legitimate beliefs and they are sometimes crushed when they meet IL-2 which tried to do reality as best as they could with a 2001 PC (plus some upgrades since then).

The P-38 does have a funny stall sometimes and some FM bugs... it isn't a super aircraft (nothing is)... it is just an aircraft and the game doesn't simulate it perfectly. Improvements would be great for all aircraft but I and many others are realistic about what is possible and hope for more in the future.

Crumpp · #8 02-05-2010, 03:13 AM

Quote:

I would say generally speaking most of the guys playing IL2 don't have experience in any of the planes in the game...

Don't have experience in any airplanes, in the game or otherwise. If they did they would know it is not lift, thrust, or drag that makes an airplane fly. The airplane flies on money.

Quote:

they meet IL-2 which tried to do reality as best as they could with a 2001 PC (plus some upgrades since then).

For a PC game it is not bad at all. Most importantly, It is fun.

Aviar · #9 02-06-2010, 04:29 PM

Here is another real life video concerning the P-38 stall characteristics, basically confirming the first video I posted. You can jump forward to 04:50 (4 minutes, 50 seconds) to see the pilot demonstrate that the P-38 does not 'flip over' in a stall....it simply drops it's nose straight down until the speed increases.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVsRK...eature=related

Aviar

AndyJWest · #10 02-06-2010, 04:50 PM

As far as I can tell, in an unaccelerated stall, the IL-2 P-38 has no tendency to 'flip over' if you keep it straight: This is stick full back, sinking like a stone, but staying level:

In an accelerated stall (a tight turn for instance), it will 'flip' if you pull really hard, but there is ample warning from buffeting.

I doubt if a modern pilot flying a P-38 would treat it sufficiently roughly to make it 'flip', at least intentionally.