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#11
02-20-2010, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
The higher init would allow the marauder to run when his ability isn't ready and avoid the bear on those turns. This means the marauder gets 2 hits to every bear hit. The no retaliation ability and the retaliation to the bear's hit. Whether or not that's enough to kill the bear, I can't be bothered to check. I already did my math for the day. Edit: I've attached an excel spreadsheet I made. It has all the various stats of different units and does some calculations as well. Damage per Leadership (adjusted for attack and crit), Health per unit (adjusted for defense), Total damage resistance (adjusted for defense and physical resistance). You can plug in your hero's attack/defense/crit/resistance/extra damage (assassin's dagger or whip of pain) and enemy attack/defense at the top. It is lacking the special abilities and talents however. I figure most people would have something similar, but if not they can use mine. I find it helpful so others might as well. Last edited by dashcunning; 02-20-2010 at 07:27 AM. 
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#12
02-20-2010, 07:54 AM
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The Bear definitely beats the Maurader. Both have speed of 2, and the bear clearly wins the tiebreak, so the bear has no need to close to range with the Maurader. If the grid is infinite, the Bear can just turn and run and it's a stalemate; then bear wins tiebreak. If the grid is finite, the bear can gradually herd the Maurader into a corner. The maurader cannot slip by the bear unless there is very unusual terrain (i.e., a loop around which the Maurader can run but the bear cannot) or the maurader is willing to take a hit for it's trouble. AND if the bear is commanded well he can arrange so that the Maurader will always have to suffer a bear attack for each time he wastes a turn not moving so he can use his no-retal attack.
I'm pretty sure the Veteran Orc can win vs. Lake Dragonfly without tiebreak - he only needs to get one hit. If he saves his run ability until he's in the right position, on most grids he can get that one hit in. On an exceptionally large or obstacle-ridden one he can't, but those are... exceptional. The Thorn Hunter shouldn't even come close to beating the Polar Bear - the Thorn Hunter does 1-2 damage, with attack 4. The polar bear has defense 26, so the effective damage is basically 1. It would need to hit the polar bear 130 times to kill it. Meanwhile, the polar bear need only get in one hit. And since the polar bear has the run ability plus higher initiative, the polar bear can hit the thorn if the thorn ever ends a turn within a radius of 6 of the polar bear (polar bear waits. Thorn moves. If the thorn is within 6, polar bear uses run to close 4 spaces, then moves the remaining 2 at the start of the next turn). On an infinitely large grid the thorn wins, but even on a large 12x12 grid the polar bear can simply stand in the middle, then slowly inch towards the thorn hunter cutting off space until it gets the kill. Bowmen vs. imps is definitely strongly in the imps favor. The imps always strike first due to higher initiative; thanks to throwing two fireballs while they close the gap they'll get a hit in every turn, their attacks do more damage (on average) than the bowmen, they have almost equal health (32 to 34), and once the imps close the gap if they're smart they'll move right up next to the bowmen before launching strike-and-return attacks... meaning they can corner the bowmen, and on the 5th, 7th, 9th, etc. turns (possibly 6th, 8th, 10th, etc. or 4th, 6th, 8th, etc. depending on the size of the grid) the bowmen will be stuck in melee range - meaning they get no attack that turn. I'd predict the bowman die around turn 7, by which time I'd expect them to have done maybe 18 damage to the imps. And that's assuming the bowmen don't take any burning damage over time from the imp's fireball, which they might. Otherwise I think I agree with all your judgements.
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#13
02-20-2010, 08:59 AM
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Once again thanks to everybody for reading and commenting upon this crooked topic!
Dashcunning already replied to zechnophobe along the lines I would have used to argue in favor of the bear beating the marauder. The speed of the goblin: I checked on a save file and indeed it's 2. However the table in pdf format I dl'd somewhere from this forum gives the speed as 3. Since I couldn't look up all 96 units in game, I used this table as a reference. If it has more errors then of course some results may be a little askew as well. As for the thorn hunter - polar bear issue... a clarification I already presented in the first post: When I use "3-1" and "3-2" I do NOT mean "team a wins 3 times out of four" or "team a wins 3 times out of 5". I just mean "3-1: I am pretty sure team A wins, however there is some doubt, for example if team B is exceptionally lucky or the grid is very peculiar", "3-2: I think team A wins, however there are so many variables that much deeper calculation would be required and, due to the random aspect of many variables, would still probably not settle the matter once and for all". Probably the TH-PB match should have been 1-3 rather than 2-3, but I gave the PB as winners anyway so I don't think a correction is really needed. The tennis jargon is just an analogy, after all this is the KB universe... I do not envision the loser to go showering and think about better tactics after fighting 5 times, I envision one fight to the death with the winner surviving, and only one unit alive after 7 rounds 
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#14
02-20-2010, 09:13 AM
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And here is round 2, top half.
Black Dragon (1) 3 Priest 0 Black Unicorn 2 Assassin (32) 3 Ent (17) 3 Elf 0 Griffin 1 Alchemist (16) 3T Ancient Ent (9) 3 Gorgul 0 Beholder 2 Archmage (24) 3 Shaman (25) 3 Guard Droid 0 Bear 0 Bone Dragon (8 ) 3 A few interesting matches here. The BD toasts the priest immediately, the ent has no problems taking out the elf from distance through swarm (takes some rounds but is quite settled through higher AT, DE and health), bone dragon, AE and shaman should have no trouble respectively with bear, gorgul and guard droid. Griffin-alchemist, I think, goes to tie-break. Initiative is equal. The ranged attacks of the A either are charge-based or have short range, so the griffin could keep distance but would go down in restricted space. I say 3-1 and not 3-0 after TB because maybe I am overlooking something. Black unicorn - assassin. This has many variables. My guess is venomous+no retaliation more than makes up for the BU's higher health and average damage. Also keep in mind the A has high critical (25%) so there's a good chance he will strike some hefty hits. Beholder-Archmage. An interesting battle at long range. I think - but may be mistaken - that protecting himself with magic shield the AM will be the winner.
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#15
02-20-2010, 09:27 AM
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Ooops, sorry, of course that was only top half of the top half... here are the other eight fights to complete the first half of the draw.
Giant (5) 3 Guardsman 0 Veteran Orc 0 Ancient Vampire (28 ) 3 Cannoneer (21) 3 Catapult 0 Vampire 3 retconned to 0-3  Royal Thorn (12) 2 Executioner (13) 3 Dwarf 0 Inquisitor 0 Chosha (20) 3 Knight (29) 3T Hayterant 2 Sea Dog 0 Green Dragon (4) 3 A quick word only on the two matches I consider uncertain. The Hayterant can keep away from the knight but would lose on TB. However it's possible that combining higher initiative with sharp beak the H could pull off hit&run tactics to snatch victory. Deeper calculations are welcome. We also have the first eliminated high-ranking unit. I think regeneration+no retaliation allows the vampire to beat the royal thorn, counting also his higher initiative. Maybe sowing however could switch the balance. Again, the word to the experts. Last edited by Lord Ludwig; 02-21-2010 at 03:38 PM.
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#16
02-20-2010, 02:47 PM
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If the Royal Thorn sows, at a minimum he creates 18 thorn-hunters (or 108 hitpoints in thorns, at defense 1). If the vampire vampire broke off to try and deal with the thorn-hunters, AND got a critical hit every single turn, he'd do about 30 damage a turn to them. So if the vampire spends time attacking the summoned thorns, every 3 turns he does 90 damage to summoned thorns at most, and at least 108 hitpoints of new thorns are created. He'll never catch up, so his only hope is to kill the royal thorn before it can summon too many supporting thorns. Even if he critical-hits the royal thorn every single turn, it's still only about 14 damage a turn, meaning he needs 26 consecutive critical hits (i.e., 26 turns) to kill the royal thorn.
But by turn 8 there can be 3 supporting thorn stacks in play, which is enough to blockade the royal thorn in a corner. Now the vampire has no choice but to attack summoned thorns, but the royal thorn can take all the time in the world and gradually summon more and more. Heck, the royal thorn can fill up the entire battle grid with thorns if he wants to, then they can all launch one massive salvo at the vampire. In fact, with ideal luck the royal thorn can take down a troll at night. With any sort 1-space chokepoint (uncommon, but not unheard of on battlefields) the royal thorns can seal themselves away from the troll with just one germinate, before the trolls close to melee. With consistent ideal luck, the royal thorns could summon 37 9-hp thorn warriors every 3 turns (or 333hp of defense-3 blockers). With more consistent ideal luck, the troll would do only 107 damage per turn, or 321 damage every 3 turns - or it would take 4 turns to kill off what the royal thorn can create in 3. So given time the royal thorn could gradually create a whole series of thorns, then could slowly manipulate them around the map until the troll is surrounded by thorn warriors, and the rest of the map is filled with thorn hunters. That's about 50 thorn-hunter units of 37, or 1,850 thorn-hunters all hitting the troll at once. If a thorn-hunter gets a critical hit, it does 1.78 damage, so 1,850 of them hitting does close to 3,000 damage. So while the odds are so astronomical that you'd probably have to invent a whole new notation just to write them, AND it requires a favorable map (either a particularly large one, like in Ultrax, or one with a convenient 1-space chokepoint), I believe the royal thorn may be the only unit even theoretically capable of killing a troll at night. And it certainly can kill a vampire.
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#17
02-20-2010, 04:28 PM
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Indeed I did not take in account how many thorns were created through germination. I suppose I mixed it up with sowing which calls forth a lot less. Actually considering the ratio between the vampire's attack and the thorn's defense he could crit for 45 damage, but that still means he needs at least a couple of criticals every three rounds just to keep up. So I guess a second retcon is in order, I'll just wait to see if someone can come up with a winning strategy for the vampire. As for the troll by night, the RT would have to be really unbelievably lucky... I guess he can be killed by the ancient phoenix (which I did not include in the tournament). Maybe also by the black dragon, if the BD waits, hits critically, burns the troll, then hits critically again in the next round.
Anyway, here is the bottom half of round 2: Red Dragon (3) 3 Scoffer Imp 0 Polar Bear 3 Demoness (30) 1 Paladin (19) 2 Druid 3 Ancient Bear 0 Royal Griffin (14) 3 Ogre (11) 3T Ghost 0 Gorguana 0 Demonologist (22) 3 Evil Beholder (27) 3 Foreman 0 Werewolf Elf 0 Archdemon (6) 3 Cyclops (7) 3 Royal Snake 0 Unicorn 0 Horseman (26) 3 Necromancer (23) 3 Cursed Ghost 0 Orc 0 Troll (10) 3 Demon (15) 1 retconned to 3-2 Repair Droid 3 Cerberus 0 Brontor (18 ) 3 Black Knight (31) 3 Hunter 0 Imp 0 T-Rex (2) 3 A few close calls again, so probably I overlooked something once more  not many notable things about the 3-0 matches: the werewolf is very unlucky, regeneration even with just 55 health could go some way against his fellow lvl 3 units, but the archdemon obviously rips him to pieces in one round. The demon, on the other hand, fares badly against the repair droid. The demon can strike once using running, but even if he hits critically he will only hit for, I reckon, 45-46 dmg. The RD survives and unless the grid is very small from then on keeps out of reach and slowly takes down the demon. It is possible, however, that the demon summons imps, who in turn could use their fireball and possibly burn the RD before it takes care of them. If however the one blow the demon is able to deliver is not a critical it's all for nothing. A lot of if's, I guess, and thus just enough to warrant a 3-1 instead of a 3-0, but still - until I am corrected - an almost certain win for the RD. Can the druid keep distance from the paladin and wear him down from a distance? I think he cannot, but can the summoned bears change the outcome? Every bear could go on a suicide mission wounding the paladin a bit every time... Certainly if the paladin could close for melee he would win, but can he, being no faster than the druid? At first I thought the paladin would win on TB, but now I am inclined to declare a slow win for the druid... that means the second rank head going down (three awaiting the retcon for the royal thorn) so I suppose someone will want to analyze this further. Maybe regardless of equal speed the paladin can corner the druid. Or the druid could be forced to never slow down in order to summon, going in stalemate and thus a win for the paladin on TB just like I thought at first. And there is a fourth high entry in peril: I think the no retaliation whip attack every two turns does not save the demoness from the higher health and damage of the polar bear. The word to the audience again... Last edited by Lord Ludwig; 02-21-2010 at 03:39 PM.
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#18
02-20-2010, 05:10 PM
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Royal thorn I think loses to vampire actually. How many thorns does the royal need out to actually kill the vampire in a single round? This assumes he flies in close as bat form, then switches to melee form when he can.
I think druid kills paladin. It's a tricky one, but the paladin is REALLY slow, and bears will clog his pathways. Though, I would be curious to see how many actual druid hits it takes to kill a paladin. As for Demon vs Repair droid: I am not quite convinced of this. Demon can summon friends, and more so has that 50% chance to get another action point when he's attacked. This means the repair droid can't quite do the 'wait-move' trick to keep him at bay. Not without occasionally using ALL his action points to escape. And yeah, demon only needs two hits!
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#19
02-20-2010, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Archmage has innate 50% magic resistance vs beholder's magic type attack. In the simplest straight up shooting match, archmage wins handily due to higher damage and higher health. Magic shield is not necessary. Using fighting trance (doubles damage and not attack, another mistranslation), archmage would crush beholder. Call this a 3-0 match. Knight has innate 30% physical resistance. Even with crits all the time, the hayterant would be doing less damage than the knight to start with and much less once mastery kicks in. Knight has more 45% more health. 3-0 match.
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#20
02-20-2010, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Best case (every hit a crit, damage rounded up): 24 warrior, 35 thorn, 2 royal Paladin has innate 30% magic resistance, druid does an average of 2.66 damage to start (76! hits to kill) and 1.61 at full mastery (124!! hits). Paladin is godawful slow, but that's a ridiculous number of hits. I think the bears would actually do most of the damage, while the druid plays ring around the rosey (bearsey?) to keep the paladin at bay. Paladin can't kill even the worst bears in one hit (even with a crit), so they would eventually suffer death thru bear retaliation. If they choose to chase the druid, they would never get him while the bears slowly pick away health. 3-0 match for the druids, extremely tedious but they win eventually I think. Edit: I forgot about paladin prayer which he could use to heal himself a bit. Battle takes even longer (druid hits even more absurd) but outcome is ultimately the same. Quote:
Last edited by dashcunning; 02-20-2010 at 07:11 PM.
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