Does the 109E have armor?

[Kurfürst]

A recent thread on weights got me thinking about wheter our 109E has any armor plates modelled. My virtual pilot certainly dies a lot from .303 hits, but that is not very conclusive as the 109 had an armor bulkhead relative far aft in the fuselage, so it could be bypassed by deflection hits. OTOH, it offered good protection against small caliber hits.

The reason this keeps me thinking is that the early cutaways Oleg showed no armor plate whatsoever, which was noted but I am not sure if this was fixed for the final release. And maybe its the last time to correct...

[Osprey]

If not it should have but tbh PK's on the 109 certainly used to be a novelty unless you got a shot in from 4 or 8 o'clock. High angle deflection from above into the canopy rarely bagged a PK, never understood why they did so little. All very strange when compared against the frequent PK's from the 2 .30cals on the 109 nose which occurred. I had expected the 8 guns to get lots of PK's so I'm actually pleased this seems to have changed.

[Glider]

From books that I have read in particular Fledging Eagles (Christopher Shores) the 109E didn't have pilot armor at the start of the war. But it was added during the battle of France in a similar manner to the RAF Hurricanes.
Both airforces as interim unauthorised field mods used armour taken from wrecked / disabled french fighters and the Luftwaffe did the same for the Ju87. Both sides had similar problems getting official permission but it was of course soon given and included in new production.
By th BOB it was standard to both German and British fighters

[5./JG27.Farber]

Originally Posted by glider

from books that i have read in particular fledging eagles (christopher shores) the 109e didn't have pilot armor at the start of the war. But it was added during the battle of france in a similar manner to the raf hurricanes.
Both airforces as interim unauthorised field mods used armour taken from wrecked / disabled french fighters and the luftwaffe did the same for the ju87. Both sides had similar problems getting official permission but it was of course soon given and included in new production.
By th bob it was standard to both german and british fighters

pilot plates! Pilot plates! Pilot plates! :-p

[notafinger!]

I see no evidence that CloD 109s have any armor plating. Certainly not behind the pilot & fuel tank. However, I do not think armor would defeat rifle caliber hits at very close range. Also, I believe that AP ammunition in game is far too effective. In reality AP ammo performed quity poorly in rifle caliber.

[AKA Knut]

Originally Posted by notafinger!

I see no evidence that CloD 109s have any armor plating. Certainly not behind the pilot & fuel tank. However, I do not think armor would defeat rifle caliber hits at very close range. Also, I believe that AP ammunition in game is far too effective. In reality AP ammo performed quity poorly in rifle caliber.

IRL .30 cal AP penetration is quite impressive, even .30 cal ball ammo easily penetrates pretty thick steel plate. I suspect for air-to-air, over penetration may have been a problem, unless something critical is hit like the pilot (or his "armored" back rest), engine block, control cables, etc. Otherwise rifle bullets are just punching neat little holes in the structure.

~S~

AKA Knutsac

[David198502]

Originally Posted by Osprey

If not it should have but tbh PK's on the 109 certainly used to be a novelty unless you got a shot in from 4 or 8 o'clock. High angle deflection from above into the canopy rarely bagged a PK, never understood why they did so little. All very strange when compared against the frequent PK's from the 2 .30cals on the 109 nose which occurred. I had expected the 8 guns to get lots of PK's so I'm actually pleased this seems to have changed.

Osprey....i suggest that you fly again more often and shoot again at 109s....now at least, a pilot kill is very easy and if you dont kill him directly, then the flames will do if he doesnt bail quick enough...

[trademe900]

Very pleased to see this changed.

It was quite stupid before how the 2x 7.92 so easily killed pilots and the raf EIGHT high rpm .303 could barely ever kill a pilot. A lot more believable now.

This along with the bomber fuel tanks blowing off wings fix have made this patch a lot better than it could have been.

[Osprey]

Kurfurst, just an observation but I notice that your 4 109's listed are all recovered late in the BOB, the earliest 31st August. Do you have any records from the start too? Or even Battle of France?

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Osprey

Kurfurst, just an observation but I notice that your 4 109's listed are all recovered late in the BOB, the earliest 31st August. Do you have any records from the start too? Or even Battle of France?

I think that's it, I have found these on http://aircrewremembrancesociety.com/luft1939/ site, there are many other such reports for Bf 110s, bombers etc. It's a good source.

I have the crash report for WNr. 4101 somewhere too (that's the only E-4/N crash report I know of ) which also confirms the armor plate. These reports were made in haste and were superfluous. Still they are invaluable.

It's difficult to find examples earlier, I am sure there are some other but I guess during most of August the air combat typically occured near the coastline, and those 109s that were hit and did not go straight down (and pancaked, so there was not much to report but aluminium ash pile..) probably tried to make it for France over the sea... either they did make it or did not, obviously no reports of those.

As for Battle of France, no, I have not too many French reports (relatively few 109s were lost anyways, and the French/British had other problems during retreat than inspecting them). I have the one 109E-3s which the French tested (and later handed over to the British, that's the long RAE or Morgan report), serial no 1304., which notes there were no armor fitted. But they captured that plane back in the late automn of 1939, so it does not tell you much about the BoF period's fitting.

However the 109E manual issued in december 1939 however notes that armor weight is not included in the loading weights, so its pretty clear armor was / was about to be introduced in the end of 1939 (right after the French captured WNr. 1304), given the reference.

Most secondary sources seem to note that it was the E-4 that introduced armor into serial production (and puts it May 1940), so pilot armor essentially went parallel with similar RAF upgrades.