Cockpit glass scratches?

[xnomad]

Originally Posted by Cataplasma

Plexiglass (PMMA=Polymethylmethacrylate) was invented by army and used for the first time for spit's cockpit (with its typical thermoformed rounded shape).
The scratches that you see in Lock on are typical of modern PMMA cockpits.
Alcohol is very aggressive for PMMA, if you want to make some scratches on PMMA you just have to clean it.
Glass scratches are different and very rare to see on old glass cockpit's thikness.
The spit is the only plane that should have this "scratches", and also different clean-cut bullet's holes

The 109 canopy is also plexiglass. There's even a section in the real Messerschmitt Emil manual about how to clean it without scratching it.

Glass was only used in the windscreen as armoured glass and that was introduced later on around the time of the F model and retrofitted to older E models.

[Madfish]

In my opinion not even the best glass in the world will ever be scratch free, at least I haven't seen it, not in moving objects like planes, trains or cars but even some buildings e.g. in dusty environments with strong winds.
I also think many are confusing this: In my post I said "give the glass some texture" and as we all know from physics there is no perfect surface. Even high tech mirrors do have a surface structure and a cockpit window is certainly not a high tech mirror in a vacuum and hermitically sealed environment.

The important message I want to convey here is that there are stains from water drops, dirt, smashed bugs, minor glass degradation, residue from various sources, even from the inside, e.g. touching the glass or just breathing. Did any of you really ever see a perfect surface without even some of this? Because I sure didn't.

There are countless sources for textured glass, not only hefty scratches. However, none of you will, hopefully, disagree that you can always see the canope glass. You don't just have to guess it's there - you can see it. This effect is produced by reflections and texture.

As such I must say I like the idea of a coupling with the aging slider but considering the hefty default aging I believe at least a little bit of realistic glass would be fine. Right now the glass is just perfect. As if it wouldn't have seen the real world at all. Not a single stain on it, nothing. Only a very slight reflection of sunlight.

Considering how they implemented those new sounds I really hope that the coming SDK's will make it possible or that they maybe think about this as I assume making a glass texture is much easier than re-doing the sounds and since you are in the cockpit 99% of the time it'd add a lot to the realism and imersion.


Also I did a quick random search on youtube just to illustrate the point here and entered "warbird cockpit" and first result I got was this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=lE-F29kBjsE
Now this may not be the best maintained plane in the world but even so - it's what I would expect. You can clearly see the glass surface. As everything in this world it's just not perfect although you may never realize this unless you pay attention.

You can also see this beautifully in this video here, notice the tons of tiny scratches on the canope when the plane turns:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiAIyX0l42M&hd=1

And I have yet to see proof of a scratch and stain free canope. Especially considering the crazy airflow that goes over it you'd have to expect it to get sandblasted by everything that gets caught up between propeller and the canope.

That said I would very much like to see some typical glass texture that could even be worsened depending on the aging slider setting. Bear in mind though that all pilots would still want to have vision so the effect of the aging slider should be mild. The reflection of the cockpit itself could eventually be a bit stronger though as it also provides much of what then leads to a recognition of the glass.

[Skoshi Tiger]

With visibility being a matter of life and death, and I'm not talking just about spotting an E/A, but just seeing out of the cockpit when headed into the sun. Even a small amount of grime or dirt can make it impossible to see out under the wong conditions.

I think the ground crews would have spent a very large ammount of time polishing those canopies. Also you see the photos of the planes with canopy covers to protect them between missions.

On the space shuttles the windows were polished with toothpaste after each mission to get rid of any scratches or blemishes. We're talking a bout hours of hand rubbing here!

A realistic weathering of the canopy would be Ok, but once the visiblilty reduced past a certain point no one in their right mind would fly in the plane.

Cheers!

[Madfish]

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

With visibility being a matter of life and death, and I'm not talking just about spotting an E/A, but just seeing out of the cockpit when headed into the sun. Even a small amount of grime or dirt can make it impossible to see out under the wong conditions.

I think the ground crews would have spent a very large ammount of time polishing those canopies. Also you see the photos of the planes with canopy covers to protect them between missions.

On the space shuttles the windows were polished with toothpaste after each mission to get rid of any scratches or blemishes. We're talking a bout hours of hand rubbing here!

A realistic weathering of the canopy would be Ok, but once the visiblilty reduced past a certain point no one in their right mind would fly in the plane.

Cheers!

And that's the problem. You think the aircrews had the time to spend many hours on cleaning and hand rubbing with toothpaste but I don't. Do you actually seriously think that?
I simply don't believe the conditions of the planes were always perfect and I very much doubt they ever had the time to polish the canope with toothpaste for some hours while the planes literally fell apart, had failing engines, torn wings and other brute damages - all that while flying multiple sorties a day mind you. I really very much doubt that, sorry. If you can please elaborate what squadron had such a luxury then I'd be really interested.

Did you watch the video I posted? Do you believe the visibility is that bad? I think it's perfectly normal and all the pictures and videos I can find are similar.
The point is that right now it's completely unrealistic: The glass isn't there right now. The reflections are way to subtle. You would normally see them much stronger and there is no indication of even the smallest scratch. PC gamers are just too used to "perfect vision".
Maybe the only way to clear up this myth is to actually ask a veteran about it.

I'm not talking about a thick layer mud when I said stains or dirt by the way. I'm talking about micro scratches that are mostly only visible when under the right sunlight conditions and natural dirt grease that gathers relatively quickly - especially considering the weather conditions during take off mixed with some good ol smashed bugs.

The video I posted shows a very realistic image of the canopes I have seen. I haven't seen an unscratched one in my life. I don't think we should mix up warbirds during BoB with a space shuttle that sees one mission a year or less and has a service crew 100 times bigger than a whole squadron during BoB.