Ammunition power

II/JG54_Emil · #1 02-15-2009, 01:11 PM

This is something I found in the internet quoting Oleg.

Can someone explain (preferably Oleg himself) why there is a huge tendency to over-model allied guns and under-model axis guns? The only exception is the German MG 17 7.92 machine-gun which was mounted in the bombers.(the true bullet velocity is marled blue or red and added by me, I checked different soucres in the internet for one and the same gun)
Was it ever changed to historically correct?

I don´t want to bring up old discussion that probably already took place. But I suppose it´s similar with the flight-model (and I always wonderd why a 109 or a 190 is close to be unflyable with a hole in the wing, in contrast to some allied planes that even fly with some parts of the wing broken off)

I would hate to see the same happening again in SoW.
It should be historically correct.

Or otherwise all fly the same planetype to have a balanced game.

Quote:

Ammunition power

Oleg_Maddox
Rank: Creator of IL-2 Sturmovik:FB
Date: 08/14/02 12:56PM

T - Tracer bullet
AP - Armor-Piercing bullet
APT - Armor-Piercing with Tracer
API - Armor-Piercing Incendary
APIT - Armor-Piercing Incendary Tracer
HE - High-Explosive shell
HEI - High-Explosive Incendary shell
HET - High-Explosive with Tracer
HEIT - High-Explosive Incendary Tracer
MG - M-Geschoss, thin-shell High Explosive )

Following order assigning combination of bullets/shells:
For example:
// APIT - AP - AP - APIT - API - API
Power – (both bullets/shells & splinters) – in modelled explosive equivalent.

Table
==========================

------ ShKAS 7.62 Machinegun (Russia)
// APIT - API - T - API

APIT
bullet weight = 0.0096
velocity = 869.0 true = 750
power= 0.0005

API
bullet weight = 0.0096
velocity= 871.0 true = 750
power= 0.0005

T
bullet weight = 0.0096
velocity= 869.0 true = 770
power = 0

------ Browning .303 (USA)
// APIT - AP - AP - APIT - API - API

API/APIT
bullet weight = 0.010668491403778
velocity = 835.0 750 m/s
power= 0.0018

AP
bullet weight= 0.010668491403778
velocity= 835.0 750 m/s
power= 0

------ Browning .50 (USA)
// APIT - AP - HE - AP

APIT
bullet weight= 0.0485 43,3
velocity= 870.0 true 750-850 m/s
power = 0.002

AP
bullet weight= 0.0485
velocity= 870.0 true 750-850 m/s
power = 0

HE
bullet weight= 0.0485
velocity= 870.0 true 750-850 m/s
power = 0.00148

------ MG 17 7.92 machinegun (Germany)
// AP - AP - APT

AP/APT
bullet weight = 0.010
velocity = 810.0true 905m/s
power = 0

------ MG 81 7.92 Machinegun (Germany)
// AP - APT

AP/APT
bullet weight = 0.010 11,5g
velocity = 920.0 true 755-838 m/s
power = 0

------ MG 15 machinegun (Germany)
// AP - AP - APT

AP/APT
bullet weight = 0.0128 64,5g
velocity = 760.0 true 905m/s
power = 0

------ MG 131 13mm machinegun (Germany)
// HET - AP - HE - AP

HE/HET
bullet weight= 0.035
velocity = 710.0
power= 0.00148

AP
bullet weight= 0.034
velocity= 750.0
power= 0

------ UB 12.7 machinegun (Russia)
// APIT - AP - HEI

APIT
bullet weight= 0.0448
velocity = 850.0
power = 0.001

AP
bullet weight= 0.051
velocity = 850.0
power = 0

HEI
bullet weight = 0.0428
velocity = 850.0
power = (0.00114+0.0012

------ MG 151/15 15mm cannon (Germany)
// HET - AP - HE - AP

HE/HET
bullet weight= 0.057
velocity = 960.0 true 1040 m/s
power = 0.0019

AP
bullet weight = 0.072
velocity= 859.0
power = 0

------ ShVAK 20mm cannon (Russia)
// APIT - HE

APIT
bullet weight = 0.096
velocity= 800.0 true 750-770 m/s
power= 0.001

HE
bullet weight = 0.0676
velocity= 800.0
power = 0.0068

------ MG 151/20 20mm cannon (Germany)
// APIT - HE - HE - MG - MG

APIT
bullet weight= 0.115
velocity= 710.0 true 860 m/s
power= 0.0036

HE
bullet weight= 0.115
velocity = 705.0
power = 0.0044

MG
bullet weight = 0.092
velocity= 775.0
power= 0.0186

------ MG/FF 20mm cannon (Germany)
// APIT - HE - HE - MG

APIT
bullet weight = 0.115
velocity= 580.0 true 700 m/s
power= 0.0036

HE
bullet weight = 0.115
velocity= 585.0
power= 0.0044

MG
bullet weight = 0.092
velocity = 690.0 true 700 m/s
power = 0.0186

------ Hispano Mk.I 20mm cannon (England)
// HET - AP - HE - AP

HE/HET
bullet weight =0.129
velocity= 860.0
power = 0.012

AP
bullet weight = 0.124
velocity = 860.0
power = 0

------ VYa(Βί-23) 23mm cannon (Russia)
// SIT - API - API

SIT
bullet weight= 0.195
velocity = 890.0
power = 0.0156

API
bullet weight= 0.201
velocity = 890.0
power = 0.008

API
bullet weight= 0.201
velocity = 890.0
power = 0.008

------ MK 103 30mm cannon (Germany)
// APT - MG - MG - HE

APT
bullet weight = 0.502
velocity = 752.0 true 860 m/s
power = 0.0 5.6

MG
bullet weight= 0.330
velocity = 900.0
power= 0.072

HE
bullet weight = 0.455
velocity = 800.0
power = 0.024

------ MK 108 30mm cannon (Germany)
// HEIT - MG

HEIT
bullet weight = 0.455
velocity = 500.0 true 540 m/s
power = 0.024

MG
bullet weight = 0.330
velocity = 525.0 true 540 m/s
power = 0.072 7.3

------ M4 37mm cannon (USA)
// HET - (APT/HET)

HET
bullet weight = 0.604 680g
velocity = 612.0 true 580-610m/s
power = 0.044 2.8 kW/kg

------ ΝS-37 37mm cannon (Russia)
// HEIT - APT

HEIT
bullet weight= 0.735
velocity = 900.0
power= 0.0406

APT
bullet weight = 0.760
velocity= 880.0
power = 0

------ ΝS-45 45mm cannon (Russia)
// HEIT - AP

HEIT
bullet weight = 1.065
velocity = 780.0
power= 0.052

AP
bullet weight= 1.000
velocity = 850.0
power = 0.0

-------------

Oleg Maddox 1C:Maddox Games

Monguse · #2 02-15-2009, 01:27 PM

Maybe these will help

Weights and Measures
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/i...g/50_ammo.html

WORLD WAR 2 FIGHTER ARMAMENT EFFECTIVENESS
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

then this one

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=2830

II/JG54_Emil · #3 02-15-2009, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monguse

Maybe these will help

Weights and Measures
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/i...g/50_ammo.html

link doesn´t work

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monguse

WORLD WAR 2 FIGHTER ARMAMENT EFFECTIVENESS
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

I know the site and have some of the infromation from it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monguse

then this one

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=2830

Unfortunately this threat doesn´t really explain why those guns where modelled wrong in the first place.

KG26_Alpha · #4 02-15-2009, 02:13 PM

Simply ............................ balancing.

Monguse · #5 02-15-2009, 02:42 PM

Links fixed

II/JG54_Emil · #6 02-16-2009, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha

Simply ............................ balancing.

Sorry, I don´t by that one, there are too many things out of balance in favour of red planes.

If we only stick to the guns, we get an average velocity in m/s of:

Russia: 852,5m/s
Western Allies:794,2 m/s
Red Total: 826,6 m/s

Axis:690,6m/s

So where is the balance?

Thunderbolt56 · #7 02-16-2009, 12:19 PM

.50's are porked....

Wait a minute...I was having a bad dream, or deja vu...or a vision or something.

I can't answer your question, but here's a link that is informative as well - http://members.tele2.nl/harmstolk/gunpower.htm

BadAim · #8 02-17-2009, 02:00 AM

Good grief. Do you people ever give up? Just accept that Oleg is against whatever it is you want and move the Hell on. My kids didn't whine so much when they were two.

#9 02-17-2009, 09:41 AM

Good post emil, i always thought that Blue planes were at a distinct disadvantage now it has been confirmed. Lets hope Oleg fixes it in SOW so that we have a realistic sim.

T}{OR · #10 02-17-2009, 12:34 PM

From: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=2830

Quote:

Originally Posted by 310thDiablo

csThor...I understand your point and respect it. This is something that has been asked for many times over several years. As josse said...it's not a time consuming job to do. Evidence was provided years ago to MG. the "mein" shell was added pretty readily to the German planes, we should have had API belting done as well. For those that want to complain about how API would shirft the balance of power or how it was an FM/DM change I say your wrong. Those same people did not complain when the "mein" shell was added. It sure changed things alot in hitting power to German planes.

I have to agree with Diablo here.

You can complain that velocity is porked in favour of Allies, but the actual advantage in-game goes to Blue - by a long margin. Wrong belting and what not else.

The way I see it blue (especialy 190s and 109s) need only one or two shots for their opponent to explode. You might want to complain about that first.

Need proof - just hop over to the WarClouds.

Yes, the balance might have been something which was attempted, but in very odd way. With USAAF suffering the most from wrong .50 cal belting. The velocity values you posted in the first post reflect that balance very well (FM / WM => Belting / Velocity values).