4.13 development update discussion and feedback

[RayVad]

Yep, noticed it as well right after my reply
Updated my game already and looks really good!

[Treetop64]

It's been brought up numerous times before, and it's worth bringing up again:

*** Rookie fighter AI is too skilled against Veteran and Ace fighter AI!!! ***

A good example is nine Rookie AI in I-16s vs eight Veteran and Ace AI in Bf-109s, circa June 1941. Often the AI 109 pilots will go down low and try turn fighting with the Polikarpovs, (AI flying BnZ type aircraft tended not to do this before the AI got overhauled a few patches ago), getting their asses handed to them in the process. Most, if not all of the I-16s, I-153s, etc may eventually get shot down, but at least half of the 109s get shot down as well. Often, almost all of the 109s are lost during the engagement. It's gotten to the point where you are surprised if an Ace 109 formation shoots down a Rookie Polikarpov formation with little or no loss. Again, we are talking about 100% Rookie formation against a formation consisting 100% of Veterans and Aces, and even if every AI 109 pilot in the formation is an Ace, events usually end up the same way.

Frankly, there is no way Rookie AI should be able to perform against Veteran and Ace AI like they do in this game. It's ridiculous. Some insist on making excuses on why that is OK, but it's not, and many will attest to that.

Rookies should be fodder - that's why they are the lowest AI skill rating in the game - but they are often anything but.

Please, for the love of Pete, tone down the Rookie AI skill. By a lot. Leave the hotdog shit for the Vets and Aces. Not looking to make the game easier, but it kills any immersion and perception of events when you have noobs flying around in I-16s and I-153s swatting 109 aces out of the sky like it's nothing.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Treetop64

A good example is nine Rookie AI in I-16s vs eight Veteran and Ace AI in Bf-109s, circa June 1941. Often the AI 109 pilots will go down low and try turn fighting with the Polikarpovs,

In this case, the problem seems to be that the AI programming makes Veteran or Ace Bf-109 pilots decide to fight on the enemy's terms, rather than that generic Rookie AI skill is too good. That is, there's a problem that Veteran and Ace AI isn't good enough.

Additionally, the AI doesn't take into account the fact that the Germans in 1941 were likely to all have reliable radios, while the Soviets did not, and that Luftwaffe pilots were expected to show initiative, while Soviet pilots were expected to obey orders and follow their leader at all costs.

Originally Posted by Treetop64

Rookies should be fodder - that's why they are the lowest AI skill rating in the game - but they are often anything but.

I'm not sure it's possible, but there should actually be a level of skill below Rookie, called "Trainee" or "Unqualified". Rookie should represent recent graduates from a decent school who are "qualified," but who have little to no combat experience. Unqualified should represent the real cannon fodder who had no business being in an aircraft in a combat zone.

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by Treetop64

It's been brought up numerous times before, and it's worth bringing up again:

*** Rookie fighter AI is too skilled against Veteran and Ace fighter AI!!! ***

I think it is the other way round, Ace/Veteran AI is too bad against Rookie AI, especially against TnB planes. AI is too TnB oriented in general, it is more than a joke when flights of Fw190 get destroyed with no loss to the enemy by I-16/I-153 when both are Veteran/Ace. And this happens not once, but most of the time.

[Treetop64]

I agree on the other point made by yourself and Majorfailure that it is more accurate to say the Ace AI does very stupid things against lower skilled AI that gets them into trouble. At any rate, I wish something could be done about that. While the AI is in many ways much better than it used to be, this issue is still a very annoying one.

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by Treetop64

At any rate, I wish something could be done about that. While the AI is in many ways much better than it used to be, this issue is still a very annoying one.

d'accord

[CzechTexan]

So my thoughts about the A/I were right! A few days ago I just noticed that the Roookie enemy kicked Veteran butts and that something was definitely wrong. A/I has improved but this Super-Rookie issue needs to be fixed. Until then I guess I won't use Rookies but will use Average A/I instead.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by CzechTexan

So my thoughts about the A/I were right! A few days ago I just noticed that the Roookie enemy kicked Veteran butts and that something was definitely wrong. A/I has improved but this Super-Rookie issue needs to be fixed. Until then I guess I won't use Rookies but will use Average A/I instead.

Just to fact check things, I ran a couple of 16 vs. 16 AI missions.

QMB. Bessarabia Map, no flak or objective, 1000 m altitude, no advantage to either side, clear weather. 16 Ace Bf-109E-7 vs. 16 Rookie I-16 Type 24.

Results were consistently massive victory for the Bf-109s, with a 16:1 or better kill ratio.

The only unrealistic rookie AI behavior I saw was on the first mission were a rookie I-16 was able to follow a slightly damaged Bf-109 into a vertical climb, score crippling damage on it at 400 m, and then come out above the Bf-109 at the top of the loop to kill it.

Since I had "Arcade Mode" on, I got to see AI behavior commands as well. Bf-109 were attacking by flight, with the lead plane consistently using energy attack, and the other three planes in the flight performing various forms of defensive cover.

I-16 used turn attacks, and periodically used defensive moves, as well as "panicking". In one case, I watched a slightly damaged I-16 accidentally enter a spin and crash.

So, based on those results, I'd say that AI is pretty good and returns the expected results.

If there's a problem for me, it's that Ace AI doesn't use energy fighting tactics quite as well as it might.

Obviously, though, there are situations where there are problems with Ace/Veteran AI using stupid tactics.

[CzechTexan]

OK, maybe I was jumping the gun by condemning the A/I. Maybe the situation in my mission put the Veterans in a bad position to counter effectively.

[71stMastiff]

Steam will not update to this version> anything above 4.12.2m why?