The new bomb fuzing needs to be an option.

[moilami]

Originally Posted by kimosabi

I vote moar xxxx in the cockpit. I'm sick of those xxxless pin-ups.

I agree on that the new bomb fusing could be an option. More choise for people. That said, I gladly took more difficult to use bombs since the previous bombs were just ridiculous. Just a pity that it seems skip bombing possibly took a step in the wrong direction.

In 4.09m I could Fly 3m above the target and drop the bomb, get direct hit, and escape from the blast. From what I have read that would not had been possible in real. If the arming mechanism works as explained here, that is the bomb gets armed if the arming propeller turns enough, then this 2 secs wait appears to be like good enough implementation if it took about 2 secs in real for the propeller to arm the bomb.

Anyway I am pretty sure TD is not surprised about all complaining. If a game is much liked any changes into it will cause yelling and uproar somewhere.

Now I want to hear what the Bomber Girl says about all this



Oh she said to me ignore them and come be my rear gunner Will do..


Edit: Photo by Cindi Broome photography.

[Wutz]

Originally Posted by W32Blaster

Good decision, since it might stop your complaints about peanuts here.
Sorry for being direct but I just don´t get your message.

Right peanuts, why bother as long as the fighter jocks are happy right, and peanuts because a silly change has been made, where not a single referance has been produced showing that skipping on the water stopps the arming process. With your point of view one can then say the whole sim is peanuts.
If you can not read or have understanding difficulties, I am certain there are forums that can help you with your problems.

[TheGrunch]

Yeah, because skip-bombing is the ONLY thing that bomber jocks can do, and making it any less difficult than previously (i.e., even easier than ramming) is a fatal mistake, despite the fact that in reality it was a very rare and dangerous tactic that required a lot of practise. It's still really f***ing easy, jeez!

[BadAim]

Originally Posted by TheGrunch

Probably because DT have the entire source code of the game, so it's not a feature that is in any way out of their reach? There are some things which are very difficult to achieve, but I'm pretty sure that starting and stopping the running of a timer based upon the interactions of an object in the game is not one of them.

I imagine that it might be possible, and if someone had bothered asking nicely instead of throwing a fit (and I'm not talking about you, I actually think well of you), we might have the answer from the horses mouth. The simple fact is that releasing your bombs from any height a reasonable, non suicidal pilot would have IRL gives them plenty of time to arm. It really is that simple.

[TheGrunch]

Agreed. Fundamentally, I don't think the points being made are unreasonable...I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that arming should continue based upon the bomb's speed until it is no longer moving (i.e., it has hit something). It's just that this could easily have been posted in a bug thread as a small and unremarkable issue, or as a request in the Daidalos Team thread. It's the fact that certain posters have made out that:
a) DT have made skip-bombing impossible - demonstrably untrue
b) DT have made skip-bombing harder than it was in reality - laughably incorrect, even ignoring the effects of the sea surface, bomb reliability etc., it's still easier in game than any other kind of bombing activity to hit ships with it, which is the ONLY use it saw in reality anway.
c) DT and the occupants of the forum who don't find this change ghastly have some kind of conspiracy against/don't care about bomber pilots - wait, what? For me at least I understand why the change was made (to stop people from using bombs to kill low alt pursuers, to stop skip bombing from being really f**king easy, because bombs actually DO have an arming delay) and I can cope with it even if I don't think it's quite perfect yet. As for DT, radio navigation, analog axis control of up to 4 engines(!), new Ju-88 and He-111 models, the Hs-129, Fritz-X, etc., etc. Even the MDS is an absolute boon for bomber pilots. Oh, except you can have moving vehicles now? Heaven forbid that there might be moving vehicles in a dogfight server! That would make life much too difficult for ground-pounders!

It's just embarrassing and childish for anyone to say that DT ruined skip-bombing or have ruined the game for ground attack pilots.

Did you guys all love skip-bombing before simply because it was so easy? Is that any way to decide whether a game has been ruined, the easiest activity has been made infinitesimally more difficult?

[BadAim]

Perhaps now we can get somewhere? Naaaaaaah.

[ElAurens]

TheGrunch, you have no clue why I am questioning this apparently, Oh and I have been attacking moving vehicles for some time now. And yes it is difficult, as it should be.

Always make it a personal attack don't you? Anyone that questions something is portrayed as a lazy player or ungrateful for the work of the dev team or whatever else you rant about.

I have nothing against bomb fusing per-se, but they way it is currently implemented is just flat out wrong.

Note I have not said anything about the new torpedo drop parameters. It is far more difficult, but torpedo bombing was very difficult and risky, far more so than skip bombing, which is why skip bombing of ships became the preferred method of attack.

So please stop the personal slagging. There is no reason for it.

[TheGrunch]

I don't see how my post could be construed as a personal attack against you so much as bafflement that anyone would think that this change "ruins" anything. My apologies if you took it that way. I apologise if I am often quite sarcastic. I'm British, it's a national past-time. In any case my post is not directed at you, but at Wutz and his fanatic belief that DT and other forum members are peddling an "alternate history" that panders to fighter pilots/funds piracy and destroys our video industry, and indeed at Ubi you'll notice I was replying to Uther's comments about no longer being able to skip-bomb moving land vehicles at 30ft meaning that the world of online wars has been irrevocably ruined.
Certainly I have no beef with your aim - I agree that this mechanic could do with tweaking, but I don't see what Wutz's outraged ranting and other such hysteria has to do with achieving that aim other than to insinuate that the unpaid volunteers who provided this free, non-compulsory patch have some kind of sinister agenda. This could easily have been a short simple enquiry in a bug reporting thread.

[Letum]

Time we ahd some actual data with a source...

My source for this data is "Ordnance Pamphlet 1548" Bomb Fuse Data 1945 October 5th.

Ordnance Pamphlet 1548 contains a summary of pertinent information concerning all bomb fuzes of restricted and non restricted classifications now in use by the US Navy or Army

In this document arming delay is measured by "Air travel to Arm".

This gives an average figure (unless otherwise noted) for the air travel, along the trajectory of the bomb for which it is designed.

I will give both the 'air travel to arm' and vertical fall required to reach that speed at a TAS of 100, 200, 300 and 400 Knots with a dive angle of 0 degrees (the document provides a handy conversion chart). I won't give data on fuzes that do not apply to IL2, but I will list them.

Navy Fuzes

Fuze: AN-mk 219
Type: Instant impact
Bombs: GP bombs from 100lb to 1000lb
Air Travel to Arm: 1000 ft
Vertical fall required to arm with a dive angle of 0 degrees:
100kn - 440 ft
200kn - 140ft
300kn - 60 ft
400kn - 40 ft


Fuze: mk 221
Type: Impact, 0.01 second delay
Bombs: GP bombs from 100lb to 1000lb
Air Travel to Arm: 850 - 1100 ft
Vertical fall required to arm with a dive angle of 0 degrees:
100kn - 350-500 ft
200kn - 95-160 ft
300kn - 40-75 ft
400kn - 23-40 ft


Fuze: mk 223
Type: Impact/inertia, 0.01 second delay
Bombs: GP bombs from 100lb to 1000lb
Air Travel to Arm: 850 - 1100 ft
Vertical fall required to arm with a dive angle of 0 degrees:
100kn - 350-500 ft
200kn - 95-160 ft
300kn - 40-75 ft
400kn - 23-40 ft


Fuze: mk 227
Type: Anti-aircraft bomb

Fuze: mk 228
Type: Impact/inertia, 0.08 second delay
Bombs: GP bombs from 1000lb to 1600lb
Air Travel to Arm: 1100 ft
Vertical fall required to arm with a dive angle of 0 degrees:
100kn - 500 ft
200kn - 160 ft
300kn - 75 ft
400kn - 40 ft


Fuze: mk 224, 229, 230, 231, 234, 240
Type: hydrostatic

Fuze: mk 235 & 236
Type: 2 - 30 hour delay

Fuze: mk 239
Type: Impact, 0.01 second delay
Bombs: All GP bombs except navy 100lb
Air Travel to Arm: 850 - 1100 ft
Vertical fall required to arm with a dive angle of 0 degrees:
100kn - 350-500 ft
200kn - 95-160 ft
300kn - 40-75 ft
400kn - 23-40 ft


Fuze: mk 243
Type: Water discriminating

Fuze: mk 244
Type: Impact, 4 second delay
Bombs: All GP bombs except navy 100lb
Air Travel to Arm: 450 ft
Vertical fall required to arm with a dive angle of 0 degrees:
100kn - 110 ft
200kn - 25 ft
300kn - <20 ft
400kn - <20 ft


Army Fuzes

Fuze: AN M100,101,102
Type: Impact/inertia, non-delay up to 0.24 second delay
Bombs: GP bombs from 100lb to 4000lb
Air Travel to Arm: 2000ft or 445ft
Vertical fall required to arm with a dive angle of 0 degrees: (445ft version only)
100kn - 100 ft
200kn - 25 ft
300kn - <20 ft
400kn - <20 ft

Fuze: AN M103
Type: Impact, non-delay up to 0.1 second delay
Bombs: All GP bombs - Restricted to non-naval use
Air Travel to Arm: 1140ft with delay, 1710ft without delay or 510ft with delay, 765ft without delay
Vertical fall required to arm with a dive angle of 0 degrees: (510 version only)
100kn - 140 ft
200kn - 37 ft
300kn - <20 ft
400kn - <20 ft

Fuze: AN M104, 120, 170
Type: Para-Frag

Fuze: AN M106
Type: Impact, delay 4-11 seconds
Bombs: All GP bombs - Restricted to non-naval use
Air Travel to Arm: None. Armed by safety wire

Fuze: M106, 147, 152, 153
Bombs: target ID and incendiary

Fuze: M110
Bombs: 20lb

Fuze: M11, 146
Bombs: flare

Fuze: m112,113,114
Type: Impact/inertia with 4-15 second delay
Bombs: All GP bombs
Air Travel to Arm: 100ft
Vertical fall required to arm with a dive angle of 0 degrees:
100kn - 10 ft
200kn - < 10 ft
300kn - < 10 ft
400kn - < 10 ft

Fuze: m115,116,117
Type: Impact/inertia with 4-15 second delay
Bombs: All GP bombs
Air Travel to Arm: 450-650ft
Vertical fall required to arm with a dive angle of 0 degrees: (500ft ATtA)
100kn - 130 ft
200kn - 30 ft
300kn - < 20 ft
400kn - < 20 ft

Fuze: M123,124,125, 132, 133
Type: Long Delay

Fuze: M126, 127, 128, 158, 159
Bombs: Chemical

Fuze: M129, 130, 131
Bombs: Butterfly Bomb

Fuze: m135, 136, 137
Type: Impact or 5-92 second delay
Bombs: All GP bombs
Air Travel to Arm: 1300ft
Vertical fall required to arm with a dive angle of 0 degrees:
100kn - over 500 ft
200kn - 180 ft
300kn - 80 ft
400kn - 43 ft

Fuze: m139, 140
Type: Impact or 0.01 second delay
Bombs: All GP bombs
Air Travel to Arm: 510ft with delay, 765ft without delay
Vertical fall required to arm with a dive angle of 0 degrees:
100kn - 130 or 265 ft
200kn - 30 or 68 ft
300kn - < 20 or 28 ft
400kn - < 20 or 20 ft

Fuze: 142,145, 151, 155
Type: Cluster bomb

Fuze: 143
Type: Smoke bomb

Fuze: 148
Type: to fit captured Japanese bombs

Fuze: m149
Type: Impact or air pressure
Bombs: All GP bombs
Air Travel to Arm: 250ft
Vertical fall required to arm with a dive angle of 0 degrees:
100kn - 25 ft
200kn - < 20 ft
300kn - < 20 ft
400kn - < 20 ft

Fuze: 157
Type: Napalm

Fuze: m160, 161, 162
Type: Impact inertia, non delay or up to .24 second delay
Bombs: All GP bombs 100lb to 4000lb
Air Travel to Arm: 2000ft
Vertical fall required to arm with a dive angle of 0 degrees:
100kn - over 500 ft
200kn - ~400 ft
300kn - ~200 ft
400kn - ~140 ft

Fuze: m160, 161, 162
Type: Impact inertia, non delay
Bombs: All GP bombs
Air Travel to Arm: 1500ft or 2200ft
Vertical fall required to arm with a dive angle of 0 degrees: (1500ft)
100kn - over 500 ft
200kn - 300 ft
300kn - 140 ft
400kn - 80 ft

How does this data compare to IL2 4.10?

IL2's new bomb fuze system works like modern mechanical fuzes with governors on the arming vane.
They arm after 2.5 (or 2?) seconds, regardless of aircraft speed.

After a little testing in IL2 I found that this means you must be at or above 29.5m / 97ft for the bomb to detonate after it is released in level flight. This is regardless of speed.

The fuze in IL2 acts like many wartime fuzes do when they are dropped in level flight at 200knots TAS. At 200knots it acts as if it where a fuze with a 850 foot air travel to arm distance

There are, however some fuzes that armed faster and some fuzes that armed slower than this at 200knots.

Below 200 knots IL2's bombs arm too quickly compared to most second war fuzes and above 200 knots IL2's bombs arm too slowly compared to most second war.



Facts end here, opinion starts below.

It's unreasonable for IL2 to model all fuzes. There are too many for US bombs alone and US bombs are only a fraction of the bombs ingame. We need to use ball-park figures for IL2's bombs.

From the data above, we can see that IL2's current arming delay is well within the ball park for speeds between 100 knots to about 250 knots. Above these speeds IL2's bombs start to leave the ball-park a little as the two seconds become too long.

The B25 has a top speed of about 200 knots and the A20 has a top speed of about 250 knots. At these speeds IL2's bomb arming delay compares well to real data for US bombs.
The P47's top speed of about 300 knots means the bomb arming delay is going to be too long, even more so if it is in a dive.

Ideally, the arming delay would be a result of the distance the bomb has traveled, but that kind of data may not be easy to calculate for the game.
If you had to have a time based arming delay, IL2 4.10's delay is about the best you could pick. For most speeds it's about right, for some speeds it's too short, for other too long, but it is about in the middle.
Certainly a huge improvement on having no delay.



edit: I forgot to mention about what fuzes where most common. I have no idea what fuzes where most common.

[IceFire]

Thanks Letum. Great to have some solid data!