F4u-4 and F8F

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by horseback

Unfortunately, both aircraft are claimed as the 'intellectual property' of the US Defense Company with an overactive legal staff that Shall Not Be Named...

Arguably, Vought products might be doable, since NG never fully owned Vought and sold their interest in it before the consent decree. But, it wouldn't surprise me if 1c/UbiSoft completely sold their souls to NG with the consent decree, agreeing to even the most specious intellectual property claims. After all, if NG can claim IP rights to the USS Arizona with a straight face, then they'll probably claim IP rights on the F4U-4 as well.

[pandacat]

I just find this IP issue ridiculous. If we are talking about F-35 or F-22, fine I am ok with it. IP on F4u-4 is more than half of century old. Also, there is no national security issue, either. For god's sake, why still having a tight grip on it. These worthless lawyers have nothing to suck on but dried bones.

[DD_crash]

Originally Posted by pandacat

I just find this IP issue ridiculous. If we are talking about F-35 or F-22, fine I am ok with it. IP on F4u-4 is more than half of century old. Also, there is no national security issue, either. For god's sake, why still having a tight grip on it. These worthless lawyers have nothing to suck on but dried bones.

I agree with you but the lawyers are trying to justify their huge pay and we are stuck with it. There was a move in the US to stop the sillyness but I dont know what happened. Apparently some Railroad companies wanted payment from modelers so we are not alone.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by DD_crash

I agree with you but the lawyers are trying to justify their huge pay and we are stuck with it. There was a move in the US to stop the sillyness but I dont know what happened. Apparently some Railroad companies wanted payment from modelers so we are not alone.

More to the point, 1c/Ubisoft agreed to a consent decree with NG, which might even be stricter than existing law or legal precedents. Since the consent decree is private, we'll never know.

The only way that I can see to get the properties that NG claims IP rights over into the game is for someone, preferably in Europe or certain parts of Asia, to buy the rights to IL2, but NOT agree to take on the legal restrictions placed on the franchise by the consent decree. That way, you'd get a fresh start in a legal environment where NG has a lot less power.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by pandacat

I just find this IP issue ridiculous. If we are talking about F-35 or F-22, fine I am ok with it. IP on F4u-4 is more than half of century old. Also, there is no national security issue, either. For god's sake, why still having a tight grip on it. These worthless lawyers have nothing to suck on but dried bones.

Of course it's ridiculous... and sad.

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by pandacat

I just find this IP issue ridiculous. If we are talking about F-35 or F-22, fine I am ok with it. IP on F4u-4 is more than half of century old. Also, there is no national security issue, either. For god's sake, why still having a tight grip on it. These worthless lawyers have nothing to suck on but dried bones.

The whole legal avalanche wouldn't have started IF Ubisoft hadn't thrown these lawyers a bone to gnaw on by using an artwork of an N-G product on the Pacific Fighters box (Beyond stoooopid IMHO).

Does anyone know if IP rights are voided after some time on any other works besides books/records(70 years after author dies)?

[Laurwin]

Yes it was perhaps oversimplification on my part, I should not have lumped together 1939 british fuel with high octane American fuel. Probably there was not so much lend-lease during battle of britain.

But as a matter of fact, bf-109 (and also fockewulf) have worse power, speed, climb and ceiling. When compared to more modern Allied fighters in 1943-45 (I consider ta152 as separate design)

matchups against spit mark9, mustangs, thunderbolts...(im unsure if corsair is better up high, vs german)

Reason for this good allied performance, compared to poorer german performanc at high altitude, lies partly in the fuel quality difference (which affects compression rate in engine)

[horseback]

I've been flying Corsairs and Hellcats a lot lately, and I should make a few points about the FMs.

First, while the performance is there with full engine power (110% throttle), it often seems a bit sluggish if not downright weak at less than full power. It sometimes seems an all or nothing proposition with these two. I've found that changing supercharger stages appropriately (stage 1 from sea level to around 4500 ft/1500m, stage 2 from 4500 to 17500 ft, and stage 3 above 17500 ft) helps, keeping your cowl gills (radiator flaps) at 30%, and your prop pitch between 90 and 80% when you want to speed up without overheating are big helps. When you're cruising, drop your rpms to about 2250 and your manifold pressure to about 30-35 inches with your radiator at 30% at any altitude (and the higher you get, the better against the Japanese fighters).

Second, keep the fight in the vertical; dive at 2400 or so rpm (80% prop pitch), with your supercharger at least one stage down and unless you only have a couple of thousand feet to go, don't put your throttles past 90%; you'll pick up speed quickly and you'll need to mash in a lot of left rudder and nose down trim as you gain speed, especially with the Hellcat. Trim is critical with both of these aircraft; being out of trim sucks away a lot of your speed and power, and speed and power are your primary advantages in these aircraft. Make sure you either have a very handy pair of trim axes for rudder and elevator, or easily reached buttons for left & right rudder and up and down elevator trims (I use the POV hat switch on my stick for trim, since I have a TrackIR).

Third, they both give you a lot better forward vision than the Army fighters, and the gunsight is great for estimating angles and distances in a diving attack. Shoot when you have a shot--don't try to follow your target through more than 70 degrees of turn or into a loop; just blow on past, change directions and gradually pull up into a zoom climb. Increase your prop pitch and throttle as you climb, but drop back down to lower pitch and throttle once you've gotten three or four thousand feet above the enemy to keep your engine temps manageable. Most of the time, you won't need to exceed 100% throttle; the real aircraft only went to war emergency if their lives were on the line (and they still got yelled at by the squadron Engineering Officer and or their crew chief when they got back).

Look around to make sure that you're clear and nobody is on your tail and then set up for your next attack. Use the Lean Forward POV to see behind and below you--you'll be glad you did.

Fourth, the in-game Zero has an UNGODLY acceleration from 200 to about 350kph IAS; in addition, its in-game weapons are much more effective than the real life performance, and as you might guess, the AI are unaffected by the limitations of little things like a standard convergence. I've been de-winged from over 600m by Rookies when I made the mistake of flying straight and level once I thought I had enough distance...

If you're flying Japanese aircraft, you will find that in general they are more manageable to fly than the USN fighters; much less trimming, no nose dropping as speed increases, don't overheat as quickly and they will go exactly where you point them if you keep the 'ball' centered--and the instruments are wonderfully clear and correct--something the Corsair and Hellcat are largely missing. But once they get to 350 kph, they lose steam and oomph quickly--in real life, the Zero and Oscar's stick forces 'heavied up' at speeds over 220 mph/365kph, and you were supposedly able to evade them fairly easily with a hard roll right and a dive--they just couldn't follow.

That doesn't seem to be part of the Il-2 '46 flight model for A6Ms or Ki-43s, but they are slower than you so keep fast and change directions slightly every couple of seconds until you have 700m or more separation with a speed in excess of 460 kph/280mph/250 knots.

IMHO, the Japanese FMs are almost all overoptimistic, period. Away from the carriers and major bases like Rabaul or Saipan, the maintenance was poor to non-existent, never mind the fact that the Allies had choked off most of their logisticis lines and by the time the Philippines were invaded in late 1944, most of the skilled manpower the IJN and IJA started the war with were dead or trapped on some jungle island, and that definitely included their aircraft ground crews. I suspect that actual factory performance figures that are published were ideals that were rarely met by production aircraft, particularly after mid-1944.

As mentioned earlier, the FMS seem to be based on US tests made with higher octane fuels and a certain amount of maintenance and repair far superior to anything apart from the original manufacturer's facilities that an IJN or IJAS aircraft would have received just to make it safe to fly by Western standards. The designs themselves were often quite good, but engines were generally less powerful than the designs needed and the actual production standards to build them properly were often beyond the abilities of the Japanese work force of the 1940s, especially as more and more able bodied men with technical backgrounds were absorbed (and often misused) by the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy.

cheers

horseback

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by horseback

in addition, its in-game weapons are much more effective than the real life performance, and as you might guess, the AI are unaffected by the limitations of little things like a standard convergence.

I have to wonder if 0.30 caliber/5.62mm guns aren't overpowered in general in the game.

Originally Posted by horseback

If you're flying Japanese aircraft, you will find that in general they are more manageable to fly than the USN fighters; much less trimming, no nose dropping as speed increases, don't overheat as quickly and they will go exactly where you point them if you keep the 'ball' centered--and the instruments are wonderfully clear and correct

Strange. I find that the engines on the Zero overheat fairly quickly, although they also cool down fairly quickly, too.

Other than that, the A6M and Ki-43 series are a joy to fly. I assumed that was because both planes were noted for their crisp handling - at least at low speeds.

Originally Posted by horseback

IMHO, the Japanese FMs are almost all overoptimistic, period. Away from the carriers and major bases like Rabaul or Saipan, the maintenance was poor to non-existent

I can believe this, but do you have data to prove it?

I do know that once the U.S. started hitting the home islands in 1944-45, Japanese airframe and engine quality dropped badly. Likewise, fuel quality was poor. (At least per anecdotes in Saburo Sakai's autobiography)

Two of my big wishes for some future IL2 patch are:

a) The ability to specify 100 or 87 (or whatever) octane fuel for planes.

b) The ability for mission builders or server admins to degrade aircraft performance (maybe using a slider or percentage increment) to simulate battle damage, poor maintenance or overall wear.

[Fighterace]

It's a real crying shame that the "Dash 4" Corsair and Bearcats cant be added to IL-2