#21
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That's why I always take 50% fuel or less for any QMB mission. It doesn't take that long and arguably it's "realistic" since QMB missions start in the air, presumably after the planes have been patrolling for a while.
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#22
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Horseback, all the things you mention are on par with the "fit and finish" of most other planes in this game.
Inaccurate or slow gauges? The P-11's fuel gauge still does not work, even though it was the very first extra plane introduced in a patch to the original IL-2 title. And didn't that plane fly with its rudder working in the opposite way than control input for a long time? Talk about hobbling. Is that too some sort of Russian conspiracy from the makers of this game, anti-Polish this time? Also, have you seen the Pe-2's airspeed gauge between 300 and 350km/h? It looks like a four-year old drew the 10km/h interval lines with a Crayola. Speaking of bombers, in most of them the airspeed gauge in the pilot's cockpit does not match the reading of the gauge next to the bombardier's seat. And I can't recall the climb and dive indicator NOT being a second or two slow to respond in any plane in this game, though I don't pay attention to the Japanese ones much. Inaccurate toughness? The P-51 has a glass engine and average wings, but I rarely if ever get disabled controls or get PK'd in it. Soviet planes were supposed to be tough, but the supposedly toughest of them all, the IL-2, loses its controls and its tail as easily as a lizard. Yaks become useless with a scratch on their wing, and the Pe-2 appears to have its wings glued to the fuselage with bubble-gum. Ease of flight and stalls? You can see the supposedly easier to fly Spitfires do spins and stalls all over the place in a server with lots of rookie pilots, and they're harder to recover from than in a P-51. Their elevator trim needs is more intensive than that of the P-51, and their "arrow" (British equivalent of the ball) bounces from side to side with speed changes even more. Besides, "ease of flight" is so subjective and open to interpretation, and likely means different things to real pilots who spend 95% of their flight time bored, and players of this game. |
#23
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The delay on The Ball is modeled down to what type of fluid was used in the tube. That's not a mistake, real gauges have delays, these are not 21st century Cessna's as has been noted somewhere lately.
As Joe Worsley who learned to fly in the USAAF during WWII had noted years ago, if you tried to "fly the needle" then "you'd be all over the sky". It's not all errors. Some, maybe maybe most is attempted realism. |
#24
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Check any reliable source, and the P-40 would be rated well below any model of the P-51 in the matter of trimmability or trim demands. Even with the recent changes to the FM, the Il-2 '46 Warhawk is still not the trim hog the Il-2 '46 Mustang is; the Warhawk is still fairly predictable and quite intuitive, and a far better gun platform as a result. Quote:
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If we could assume that the original game and Forgotten Battles/Pacific Fighters had the P-39 and the P-40 series properly 'slotted' in terms of capabilities and firepower versus the Soviet and German aircraft that the Soviets exhaustively tested during and after the war (and players' results in the game seemed to reflect that slotting), we should expect that the superior late war aircraft should be superior to the P-39 and P-40 in most, if not all respects. Instead, there's this insistence that more advanced means more complicated and harder means more realistic. Quote:
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I understand that the instruments in many aircraft are modeled as illegible or slow & inaccurate, but this is a flight simulation without 360 degree field of view or moving cockpit; we don't get the cues that the real pilots got, and ones we do get are slow or false in selected cases to a greater or lesser degree. I have argued in other threads on this forum that the flight instruments depicted in the game cockpits should at least meet a single standard of accuracy and clarity, the clearer and more accurate the better. Quote:
At 3:20, Mr Deitz (the bald guy) says "And we're putting an 85 gallon tank in the fuselage, back of the pilot's seat." This means that it's a done deal, the tests were passed, the concept works and we're either in production or about to enter it. No earlier than August of '43 for that portion of the script; the wording is vague and he could mean that they were already doing it at that time or that they were about to. Again, it's an overload tank, and I agree that the aircraft in the film probably didn't have it (no white cross near the data panel is visible, but the film could have been made before it became common practice). As mentioned in the film, the heavier Merlin 60 series moved the CG a bit forward from the P-51A, and I am aware that the newer radios were more compact and lighter than those in the earlier models, so adding the extra bracing, fittings and the tank probably put the CG much nearer to where it was intended. Since the consensus is that once the tank had less than 45 gallons in it, the aircraft would behave normally, the extra 235 to 260 lbs of weight from that first forty gallons of fuel was the critical part that hosed the CoG up. America's Hundred-Thousand says that as a class, the Merlin Mustangs needed a bit more trim than the Allison powered models, but that they were still very good in that regard. We could argue that a Merlin Mustang with the empty tank was closer to the ideal CG of the P-51A than the first P-51Bs without it. Now regarding trim, at 13:40 in the movie the Major in the tower asks the pilot "How is she on directional trim changes as speed and horsepower are varied?" Response:"The aircraft is stable at all normal loadings but the directional trim changes at low speeds as speed and horsepower is varied. However, the rudder tab corrects this with just a slight adjustment and it should be used as necessary. Normally, there is no trouble as the plane is naturally stable." --At this point Deitz breaks in and says "That means that the P-51B will remain at any altitude without adjusting the trim tabs." The Colonel responds "Less work for the pilot." The trimming section on the P-51 in Francis Dean's America's Hundred-Thousand is transcribed in full below: "ALLISON powered Mustangs were particularly notable for lack of required trim changes. Power or flap setting changes gave only small trim variations, and the same was true of gear retraction. The changes in tab settings for climbing and diving were negligible. Tab controls were sensitive and had to be used carefully. Trimmability was also quite good in MERLIN Mustangs, and tabs were sensitive. In these versions directional trim changed more with speed and power changes. When the rudder trim system was changed and rigged as an anti-balance tab to give opposite boost, a resulting disadvantage was more tab was required to trim the aircraft from a climb into a dive. Along with trimming the airplane for longer term steady flight conditions, some pilots trimmed their aircraft almost continuously to wash out any high stick or pedal force during maneuvering in combat." What I take from the movie and the testimony from Dean (and a good forty or fifty other pilots' accounts and personal testimony that I have read or heard over the last 40-50 years) is that the original P-51 was very well behaved in flight, and that very little trim was necessary to maintain straight and level flight throughout the speed range, and the Merlin Mustangs were also very good. In fact, so little adjustment was needed that pilots had to be warned that the tabs were sensitive & had to be applied carefully. We're not talking about a Cessna 172 here, with 160hp and a full flight speed range of 60-160mph--we are talking about an aircraft that stalls around 95mph and achieves a level indicated speed of around 380 mph at 5000 ft (and was controllable at much higher speeds). It was designed for a much greater degree of stability over a much greater range of speeds; if it weren't fairly stable over that range of speeds, particularly over the subset range of speeds normally attained in combat, it would have been nearly useless as a gun platform, which is what so many would-be users of the Il-2 Sturmovik '46 Mustangs are put off by, because it is completely unintuitive and you have to just keep at it until you learn to fly it by rote and muscle memory and ignore your instruments at critical moments. Quote:
I would take his word on what constituted a good pastry, though. Quote:
cheers horseback |
#25
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I don't tail chase. I shoot deflection.
The P-51 in the film did not have a fuselage tank. Bud Anderson's words, I added the highlights and underlines: Quote:
Your left hand was down there a lot if you were changing speeds[/B], as in combat... says "as in", not "only in" let alone "only in at high altitude". And just what kind of test were you trying to carry out? So just maybe constant TAS climbs would be easier to do. |
#26
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Guys, please keep it civil. Stay nice, show respect, you know the drill.
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#27
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Given that there are a lot of Mustangs still flying, maybe rather than quoting books at each other, maybe we ought to ask an actual Mustang driver what trim control is like?
While I'm hugely enjoying the debate between two long-time flight simmers who have a lot of knowledge to back them up, it seems like we ought to defer to the actual experts who fly the things. (With some leeway for the fact that most modern 'stangs no longer fly with guns, armor plate, overflow tanks and all the other stuff that 1944-era planes carried.) Furthermore, having a few actual warbird pilots confirm or deny our suspicions that the Mustang is nerfed would carry a lot more weight with TD than more "chart wars." |
#28
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There's also a fair bit of love for the Mustang so even if it had bad trim they would still love it to death and tell you the trim was godly. You'd need to get a hold of a real warbird pilot expert with more of a test pilot like attitude.
__________________
Find my missions and much more at Mission4Today.com |
#29
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Find one war loaded and balanced first. It's got to have dummy guns and ammo and armor.
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#30
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I recall him praising the Mustang's range effusively, but being a bit more reserved about its maneuverability. Also, it seems a bit strange that instruments in each plane in IL2 are modeled individually. Most countries standardized around one or two models of a particular instrument, so a particular model should be the same regardless of what plane it's installed in. |
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