109 elevator trim

[VO101_Tom]

Originally Posted by Osprey

I don't think there is a ticket. The point of this thread, for me, was to clarify the issue. According to what has been discovered there certainly is an issue but I would leave it to a 109 driver to write it up as a bug to be fixed, this would obvious need to include details on what the setting should be and how it should behave.

You've done a few 109 issues Tom, is this one for you perhaps??

I also think that there needs to be some research into the Spitfire and Hurricane trims too, although perhaps nobody has complained really because they are already better turners so it isn't needed (exception of when the trim is used as per the original point of the thread)

Hi. I didn't really understand, what was the exact problem with the 109's trim (I asked the Bugreport, that I read the summary there ). The tight turning is not problem if the speed dropped quickly. When you using the trimm, the 109's structure allow the tighter turn, than without trimm (only the end positions), because the whole stabilizer moves, so it generates more force (not only reducing the stick force, like ordinary trim). But this is not recommended, because drop all the energy very fast, and the trimm wheel moving slow (I mean, compare to Il-2. I have no problem the trimm's or Flap's speed in Clod ). If the enemy shaking the stick, you can't follow

I can not help with RAF types, I have only pilot's manual (no technical info, only aircraft handling and performance)

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Robo.

Quite complicated indeed. I have no knowledge of using different types of superchargers for A-1 engines (if you could point me to some reference that would be great!). Only tech. document I have is Betriebs- und Wartungsvorschrift for DB 601A (Aus. C, October '40), unfortunately, it's not going into further detail (obviously) and it does not distinguish between 601 subversions at all. Do you mean the A-0 by 'old Supercharger'?

http://kurfurst.org/Engine/DB60x/DB6...sheets_A0.html

I always thought Aa was basically slightly modified (re-designed head, reinforced valves allowing higher MFP, different supercharger gear ratio (I am not sure about exact details here) leading to slightly lower FTH traded for more power below FTH.

Hi!

I have very little data of the technical 601Aa, apart from that it seems that it was originally meant as an export version (small a = auslandisch or foreign, ie. export), but about 1/3 of all 601s were of the Aa version (info via butch2k). All E-7s (save the ones with 601N) and all /B versions had the Aa. The rest were probably mixed. As for output, all I can say it had improved output and higher manifold pressures.

As for the improved supercharger, I can attach to technical sheet (showing the increased FTH of the new supercharger, or neue Lader) and power curves for the new supercharger DB 601A-1. I believe the A-0 was an early pre-production model only.

I agree. Plus it wasn't just the engine power but power to weight ratio which was in favour of the German design. Still very interesting discussion (although OT ). I find it difficult to compare the power of Merlins and DBs as British documents usually mention bHP (brake horse power). The data you posted are correct, of course.

Yes, all things consider regardless of similar outputs the DBs were powering a lighter plane with smaller drag, so even when the powers were similar, it meant a flight performance advantage for the 109s.

I believe the conversion between continental PS and imperial BHP is 0,986 PS = 1 HP. It makes very little difference, especially in practice considering the tolerance for production engines. One 109 report I have for example shows the engine was down about 50 HP compared to nominal..

The XII was not so rare during BoB, the XX and 601N were later designs and ones to be directly compared in my opinion.

I agree, the Merin XX was a good engine, and saw some service late in the BoB with Hurri IIs. Personally, I tend to pretty much ignore it, since lets face it, since it was powering the rather obsolate Hurricane airframe, it amounted to little other than 'a kiss to a dead person'. It didn't really change much, the Hurricane was a dead end.

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by VO101_Tom

Hi. I didn't really understand, what was the exact problem with the 109's trim (I asked the Bugreport, that I read the summary there ). The tight turning is not problem if the speed dropped quickly. When you using the trimm, the 109's structure allow the tighter turn, than without trimm (only the end positions), because the whole stabilizer moves, so it generates more force (not only reducing the stick force, like ordinary trim). But this is not recommended, because drop all the energy very fast, and the trimm wheel moving slow (I mean, compare to Il-2. I have no problem the trimm's or Flap's speed in Clod ). If the enemy shaking the stick, you can't follow

I can not help with RAF types, I have only pilot's manual (no technical info, only aircraft handling and performance)

I had asked if 109 drivers were using trim to gain more lead and if so was this accurate to RL. From reading the thread I think there are 2 potential issues:

1. That presently the 109 does not require trim to be pulled out of a high speed dive. In RL trim would have to be set prior to the dive in order to pull out.
2. The trim wheel in game moves too quickly compared to how a RL pilot could make adjustments (there are answers and videos in the thread). Some O/L pilots are using this to gain lead quickly, which is unrealistic.

I suggested that a 109 expert validate the information gathered in order to make the 109 more accurate via the bugtracker.

I do not know if the same problem occurs in RAF fighters however I suspect this would not be required given that they already have the turn advantage.

Does that make sense? ~S~

[justme262]

I tested this and found yes it is too quick and smooth to roll the trim wheel through the whole range of motion. The thing is in a combat turn you don't want to trim the stabiliser more than a degree or two. So red players are not disadvantaged because blue 109 pilots will never want to move it through the whole range of motion unnaturally quickly.
It would be more realistic if the trim wheel moved a little bit slower and in little bursts to simulate the motion of a hand turning the wheel. In practice though it hardly makes much difference.

What I did discover though is that flying the 109 with little adjustments of trim is a very good way to conserve energy and keep the top speed up. I have now bound the trim button next to my throttle so my left hand can easily adjust trim

[VO101_Tom]

Originally Posted by justme262

It would be more realistic if the trim wheel moved a little bit slower and in little bursts to simulate the motion of a hand turning the wheel.

The hardest thing to simulate the human behavior. In addition the PC controllers produce many false signals, if one of them can block the controller for a while, it's wrong, annoying, and unnecessary. Imho. The PC don't know, you move the controller, or just any contact trouble. If you filtering, it will be sluggish...