Spitfire supposed to dive better than the 109?

[*Buzzsaw*]

Salute

The way this game has represented the Spitfire and Hurricane displays either a complete lack of research or a complete bias.

The facts are there for all to see.

The RAF, equipped with a force which was 2/3's Hurricanes, shot down more than 1/3 more aircraft than the Luftwaffe, despite being outnumbered more than 3-1 and despite having to deploy 2/5's of its fighter force in areas of Britain which weren't under attack. In the decisive month of August for example, the Luftwaffe official records admitted losses of 774 aircraft, compared to British acknowledged losses of 426. This despite the Germans having more Single engined fighters available than the British, not even counting the available twin engined fighters, and the 1200+ bombers. The British were also focused on shooting down bombers, not fighters, were forced to climb up into combat and were almost without exception, outnumbered in every engagement.

Any examination of performance data shows the Spitfire IA using 100 octane was the superior aircraft to the 109E3 at altitudes up to approx. 16,000 ft. It was as fast or faster, climbed as well, turned better and rolled similarly. The 109E4 didn't come into use until October of 1940, and even then, it was available in tiny numbers. This game is supposed to be representing the BoB until September 15th, so it shouldn't even be in the game. (why is this plane on the online servers in unlimited numbers???) Both German and British evaluations show the Hurricane and Spitfire easily outturned the 109, Werner Moelders, the leading German Ace, later appointed to command the entire Fighter Force is very clear in warning German pilots not to turn with either British plane, and his evaluation was of the 109E3 versus the two speed pitch version of the Spitfire, far inferior to the later constant speed versions. The British evaluations were numerous and conclusive. (see previous post for one)

There was a reason the phase "Achtung Spitfeuer!" came into common usage among German pilots. (although Hurricanes shot down nearly as many 109's as Spitfires, and the tendency to report all British fighters as Spitfires was common) The symptoms "kanalkrankheit" or 'Channel Sickness' had considerable numbers of the Jagdfliegers out of action by the end of the battle. The German fighter pilots were confronted with aircraft which were more than capable of shooting them down and the fear that generated was actually physically disabling. And that was despite the RAF being told whenever possible to ignore the German fighters in favour of attacking bombers.

Why can this group of developers not get the Flight models of the British aircraft right? Everytime we get a new version, they get worse. There seems to be a stubborn refusal on the part of these Russian developers to acknowledge fact. Is this bias? A relic of the old competition of the cold war? Whatever it is, it has no part in what is supposed to be an objectively modelled SIMULATION.

The typical 'on the deck' engagement we see on the servers in CLIFFS OF DOVER is nonsense. The German aircraft were not competitive down low against the Spitfire and the advantages they had versus the Hurricane were nearly nullified. There was a reason the Luftwaffe reverted to sending its Fighters in higher and higher as the battle went on, by the end the escorts were coming in at 10,000 meters, to take advantage of their better performance up high. As mentioned, the 109's were faster and climbed better than all British Fighters over approx. 5500 meters, their advantages versus the more numerous Hurricane were magnified. The German bombers came in at this altitude anyway, no reason to go lower. Only when the German fighters were assigned to Jabo attacks, after daylight bombing ended were the Germans making low level attacks, and that resulted in heavy losses.

This game should see a situation whereby the Germans come in high, stay high with their bombers and only the foolish end up in fights on the deck.

The current situation whereby we see 109's on the deck zooming circles around the Spitfires is complete nonsense.

[Winger]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

This game should see a situation whereby the Germans come in high, stay high with their bombers and only the foolish end up in fights on the deck.

Sounds like the game will be really fun after we changed it like this Spitfirefanboy says. Please do it 1C and shovel your own grave.

Winger

[robtek]

Originally Posted by Osprey

.....

Meanwhile robtek claims that only experienced Spitfire pilots could out turn the 109. Laughable.

Maybe you should actually read the report before proofing your ignorance.

[skouras]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

Salute

The way this game has represented the Spitfire and Hurricane displays either a complete lack of research or a complete bias.

The facts are there for all to see.

The RAF, equipped with a force which was 2/3's Hurricanes, shot down more than 1/3 more aircraft than the Luftwaffe, despite being outnumbered more than 3-1 and despite having to deploy 2/5's of its fighter force in areas of Britain which weren't under attack. In the decisive month of August for example, the Luftwaffe official records admitted losses of 774 aircraft, compared to British acknowledged losses of 426. This despite the Germans having more Single engined fighters available than the British, not even counting the available twin engined fighters, and the 1200+ bombers. The British were also focused on shooting down bombers, not fighters, were forced to climb up into combat and were almost without exception, outnumbered in every engagement.

Any examination of performance data shows the Spitfire IA using 100 octane was the superior aircraft to the 109E3 at altitudes up to approx. 16,000 ft. It was as fast or faster, climbed as well, turned better and rolled similarly. The 109E4 didn't come into use until October of 1940, and even then, it was available in tiny numbers. This game is supposed to be representing the BoB until September 15th, so it shouldn't even be in the game. (why is this plane on the online servers in unlimited numbers???) Both German and British evaluations show the Hurricane and Spitfire easily outturned the 109, Werner Moelders, the leading German Ace, later appointed to command the entire Fighter Force is very clear in warning German pilots not to turn with either British plane, and his evaluation was of the 109E3 versus the two speed pitch version of the Spitfire, far inferior to the later constant speed versions. The British evaluations were numerous and conclusive. (see previous post for one)

There was a reason the phase "Achtung Spitfeuer!" came into common usage among German pilots. (although Hurricanes shot down nearly as many 109's as Spitfires, and the tendency to report all British fighters as Spitfires was common) The symptoms "kanalkrankheit" or 'Channel Sickness' had considerable numbers of the Jagdfliegers out of action by the end of the battle. The German fighter pilots were confronted with aircraft which were more than capable of shooting them down and the fear that generated was actually physically disabling. And that was despite the RAF being told whenever possible to ignore the German fighters in favour of attacking bombers.

Why can this group of developers not get the Flight models of the British aircraft right? Everytime we get a new version, they get worse. There seems to be a stubborn refusal on the part of these Russian developers to acknowledge fact. Is this bias? A relic of the old competition of the cold war? Whatever it is, it has no part in what is supposed to be an objectively modelled SIMULATION.

The typical 'on the deck' engagement we see on the servers in CLIFFS OF DOVER is nonsense. The German aircraft were not competitive down low against the Spitfire and the advantages they had versus the Hurricane were nearly nullified. There was a reason the Luftwaffe reverted to sending its Fighters in higher and higher as the battle went on, by the end the escorts were coming in at 10,000 meters, to take advantage of their better performance up high. As mentioned, the 109's were faster and climbed better than all British Fighters over approx. 5500 meters, their advantages versus the more numerous Hurricane were magnified. The German bombers came in at this altitude anyway, no reason to go lower. Only when the German fighters were assigned to Jabo attacks, after daylight bombing ended were the Germans making low level attacks, and that resulted in heavy losses.

This game should see a situation whereby the Germans come in high, stay high with their bombers and only the foolish end up in fights on the deck.

The current situation whereby we see 109's on the deck zooming circles around the Spitfires is complete nonsense.

excellent post

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by robtek

Maybe you should actually read the report before proofing your ignorance.

Here we go again - yep, the Spitfire was a rotten fighter and inexperienced pilots could not handle its peculiar stall characteristics, nor were they able to turn with the wonderful 109 for fear that they might stall, spin, crash and burn. It's possible that hundreds of Spitfires were lost this way, yet were counted as combat casualties because it happened over the sea or enemy territory. Let's face it, the Spitfire was that skittish 1960s-1980s Porsche 911 in which the back end would slide 180° in wet weather at the least provocation, while the 109 was the sweet-handling Toyota GT 86 of the fighter world.

[robtek]

Originally Posted by NZtyphoon

Here we go again - yep, the Spitfire was a rotten fighter and inexperienced pilots could not handle its peculiar stall characteristics, nor were they able to turn with the wonderful 109 for fear that they might stall, spin, crash and burn. It's possible that hundreds of Spitfires were lost this way, yet were counted as combat casualties because it happened over the sea or enemy territory. Let's face it, the Spitfire was that skittish 1960s-1980s Porsche 911 in which the back end would slide 180° in wet weather at the least provocation, while the 109 was the sweet-handling Toyota GT 86 of the fighter world.

Yes, here we go again against the fantasy Spitfire some would like to have.

Here are two excerpts from the report which prove that i didn't get my opinion out of thin air:

1st) page 15
When the Me.109 was following the Hurricane or Spitfire, it was found that our aircraft turned
inside the Me.l09 without difficulty when flown by determined pilots who were not afraid to
pull their aircraft round hard in a tight turn. In a surprisingly large number of cases, however,
the Me.l09 succeeded in keeping on the tail of the Spitfire or Hurricane during these turning tests,
merely because our pilots would not tighten up the turn sufficiently from fear of stalling and spinning.


2nd) page 18
The gentle stall and good control under g are of some importance, as they enable the pilot
to get the most out of the aircraft in a circling dog-fight by flying very near the stall. As
mentioned in section 5.1, the Me.l09 pilot succeeded in keeping on the tail of the Spitfire in
many cases, despite the latter aircraft's superior turning performance, because a number of the
Spitfire pilots failed to tighten up the turn sufficiently. If the stick is pulled back too far on
the Spitfire in a tight turn, the aircraft may stall rather violently, flick over on to its back, and
spin. Knowledge of this undoubtedly deters the pilot from tightening his turn when being
chased, particularly if he is not very experienced.

Those facts were shouted to death by some people in another thread.

If the Spitfire is realistic simulated it has enough advantages that it doesn't need fantasy values proposed by some tunnel vision fans.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

SaluteThis game should see a situation whereby the Germans come in high, stay high with their bombers and only the foolish end up in fights on the deck.

On server with high flying bomber groups the biggest issue at the moment, as I see it, is the Spitfires engines burning out trying to climb to the bombers.

The LW fighters are too busy in vulching attacks on RAF Base Hawkinge, because they know that any Spitfire will over heat if they rise to attack an incoming flight at 15,000'

It would be interesting to see the maintenance reports and see how many spitfires were lost to overheating engines.

According to the Pilot notes accompanying the Collectors edition. as long as I keep the RPM at 2600 with 6 1/4lb boost I should be able to climb for 30 minutes as long as I don't let the water temp get above 120C and the oil above 90c. It just isn't happenening at the moment.

I can live with the lower performance at the moment, plenty of time for that to be sorted out but for enjoyment it would be good to be able to get in a position to shoot the enemy.

There seems to be a very small proportion of Blue players that seam to resist the idea of seeing historically correct performance figures. Maybe their idea of "great and balanced gameplay" is to be able conduct the battle of Britain without an effective air opposition? (just like Herman had intended???? )

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

The way this game has represented the Spitfire and Hurricane displays either a complete lack of research or a complete bias

I think it's more likely due to no longer having someone like Oleg who understands both aeronautics AND game programming.

Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity.

[KG26_Alpha]

Originally Posted by robtek

Yes, here we go again against the fantasy Spitfire some would like to have.

Here are two excerpts from the report which prove that i didn't get my opinion out of thin air:

1st) page 15
When the Me.109 was following the Hurricane or Spitfire, it was found that our aircraft turned
inside the Me.l09 without difficulty when flown by determined pilots who were not afraid to
pull their aircraft round hard in a tight turn. In a surprisingly large number of cases, however,
the Me.l09 succeeded in keeping on the tail of the Spitfire or Hurricane during these turning tests,
merely because our pilots would not tighten up the turn sufficiently from fear of stalling and spinning.


2nd) page 18
The gentle stall and good control under g are of some importance, as they enable the pilot
to get the most out of the aircraft in a circling dog-fight by flying very near the stall. As
mentioned in section 5.1, the Me.l09 pilot succeeded in keeping on the tail of the Spitfire in
many cases, despite the latter aircraft's superior turning performance, because a number of the
Spitfire pilots failed to tighten up the turn sufficiently. If the stick is pulled back too far on
the Spitfire in a tight turn, the aircraft may stall rather violently, flick over on to its back, and
spin. Knowledge of this undoubtedly deters the pilot from tightening his turn when being
chased, particularly if he is not very experienced.

Those facts were shouted to death by some people in another thread.

If the Spitfire is realistic simulated it has enough advantages that it doesn't need fantasy values proposed by some tunnel vision fans.

Well done point made

Ok threads closed.

Its obvious there's a continuing red v blue bashing theme (understandable seeing as its a red v blue sim) but its from the same members across any thread they can see fit to ruin.

The report has not been read by those participating in this thread in a disruptive manner, it's just being treated as another slagging match between members.

You are continuously disrupting the forum and will receive infractions/bans in future for such actions.