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IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover Latest instalment in the acclaimed IL-2 Sturmovik series from award-winning developer Maddox Games.

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  #21  
Old 03-05-2011, 07:03 AM
Sauf Sauf is offline
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I wouldnt mind trying RO2, what is the lastest version of the game called that has a demo? I see ostfront 41-45 on google but not sure if thats an old version/add-on

Cheers
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  #22  
Old 03-05-2011, 05:45 PM
Flying Pencil Flying Pencil is offline
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Originally Posted by Space Communist View Post
The closest thing that I am aware of to a full war sim is ArmA 2. It has reasonably realistic ground combat over areas large enough for aircraft to maneuver meaningfully. However, the aircraft flight models are extremely simplistic.
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Try WW2 Online, FREE offline demo play.

To play other parts of map, after you pick the unit, shift the map to, say, Antwerp, click on Tank or Truck and (Enter).

If you pick airplane, make sure you pick and Airplane mark, ship with ship mark.
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  #23  
Old 03-06-2011, 06:24 PM
Thee_oddball Thee_oddball is offline
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Originally Posted by Flying Pencil View Post
The list of vehicles in CoD is surprisingly huge(!).
More then a smattering then needed for ground targets, enough for a rich ground game if they make it fully functional.
All it needs is troops (which is far from easy).

well?
PS, their is also a UK Train that I do not think is on list.

you would need 1000 person servers to make it fun and viable, wwIIonline does what you are talking about
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  #24  
Old 03-06-2011, 06:59 PM
Hunden Hunden is offline
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Originally Posted by zauii View Post
Not a chance in hell unless you want BF1942 realism, theres a reason why RO2 does not do planes and a reason why IL2 does not do ground combat.
I think you are mistaken, I believe it will become exactly that, a full War simulator. Ground and naval forces. Don't get stuck in the past
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  #25  
Old 03-06-2011, 07:27 PM
zauii zauii is offline
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Originally Posted by Hunden View Post
I think you are mistaken, I believe it will become exactly that, a full War simulator. Ground and naval forces. Don't get stuck in the past
Just takes common sense as to why it won't happen, i've already listed some obvious once, sure if you wanna be optimistic about it then go for it, but it's not gonna happen.
Separate simulators definitely, but one gigant multi sim in RO2/IL2 quality lol keep dreaming jesus..

Last edited by zauii; 03-06-2011 at 07:29 PM.
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  #26  
Old 03-06-2011, 10:02 PM
Avimimus Avimimus is offline
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Originally Posted by zauii View Post
In case you fail to get my point, here is why it will never happen.
I could think of a million more reasons but this should be obvious for anyone with a little understanding of game development and time..
Also this post is not meant to bash anyone, its a cool idea and all but its simply not practical or doable even for a large studio.

Maps / Quality:

If you expect a ground simulation on the scale of IL2 maps to work together with IL2 aka a multi simulation that includes tanks,
infantry and aircraft all detailed and simulated as much as possible you're asking for far too much.

First of all lets look at the quality, i assume you'd want RO2 type quality on the ground combat aka
the same quality that Maddox models the air combat but on the ground for both infantry and tanks.

Lets see, RO2 has 10 maps on launch and has been in development for 4-5 years .. they've incredibly detailed maps BUT
remind me again how large they are since they're so detailed? Oh yeh thats right each map is very small if you compare it
to a flight sim map which is a lot less detailed, meaning any kind of detailed world or large scale map would take forever to model in Unreal engine 3 quality.

Fun factor
Even if its a simulator the fun will be completly gone. If you model the distances in a flight sim for the infantry and vehicles on the ground we're talking hours of driving,
not to mention a very dull and undetailed ground world.. something that would be utterly boring from the 1st person perspective.

Secondly you would need thousands and thousands of players to even make it remotely interesting,
or hey lets play 32vs32 infantry combat on a map as large as Britain..

Hardware/Resources/Size
The game would be gignormous not only in size but it would take forever to develop, and what you might get out of a finished product of this type,
is not even close to worth the development cost.. thats without even mentioning how much a game like that would drain your system.

From Twi Devs

The TWI devs of RO2 made a good point, they clearly stated that they're going for realistic infantry and tank combat but to include planes would just be ridiculous..
you'd have them going in U-turns and the simulation scale of the planes would be far lower than the ground experience.. aka more like BF1942. And thats why
a proper & detailed ground + air simulation isn't even remotely close with todays technology.
All good points.

However, a situation where there is a close-air-support mission and the option of jumping into the seat of tanks which are about to fight over the same village that the mission targets is possible.

It would be much more like having a ground sim and a flight sim with very little interaction between the two (except at the level of the turn based campaign). It might still be fun though... (and the detailed physics etc. would provide another good engine).

The ground vehicle packs for FS-WWI were quite amusing...
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  #27  
Old 03-06-2011, 10:36 PM
Hunden Hunden is offline
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Originally Posted by zauii View Post
Just takes common sense as to why it won't happen, i've already listed some obvious once, sure if you wanna be optimistic about it then go for it, but it's not gonna happen.
Separate simulators definitely, but one gigant multi sim in RO2/IL2 quality lol keep dreaming jesus..
They had to dream about going to the moon before they went, think bigger my friend.
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  #28  
Old 03-07-2011, 03:28 AM
Blackdog_kt Blackdog_kt is offline
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We've already seen Luthier changing aircraft mid-mission in one of the videos. We also know there will be some sort of MDS functionality (AI units in dogfight servers).

Combine the two and you have the solution for the scale problem between the speeds and travel times of aircraft and ground units:

Before logging off the server for the night, set up your mission for the next day by specifying a set of AI controlled units to spawn and move along certain waypoints at a certain time. Next evening you join the server and select one of these AI controlled units to spawn into and take control of.

Voila, you can now simulate a sortie to Berlin on a 1:1 scale map without having to spend a full 6 hours in front of your PC, as well as conduct a combined tank/infantry assault without having to drive all the way to the front. The AI does the navigating for you, you jump in and take control a few minutes before the action starts. Add an ownership flag or a password for the AI units (so that each person can have a choice of his own reserved units to spawn into) and you're good to go.

I don't expect the ground combat part to be as hi-fi as the flight part, just like an ArmA player doesn't expect high quality flight models in what's predominantly a ground combat sim. Sure, when driving panzers in a future expansion of CoD i'm sure the ground textures will seem blurry in comparison to viewing them from the air, but the aim in such a case is to simulate an entire scenario with emphasis on one part, rather than a choice between doing it all perfect or not at all.

I don't care much for ground combat in CoD but it would be nice to have in the future for people with more diverse tastes. However, what i'm very interested in is some sort of mechanic like the one i described to facilitate long range bombing campaigns in an online setting.

Small flying distances and scaled down maps for the sake of playability are one of the top reasons we fly in an unrealistic manner. In reality you don't take unnecessary risks when you have a 500 mile run through hostile airspace before you reach the nearest friendly base, but in IL2 we're usually withing gliding distance of the home base or at the very least friendly lines.

And let's not even get started on the payload considerations, we load up on 25% fuel and optimize for combat performance in a way which was impossible to do in real life for strategic level actions (and even some tactical ones), because we wouldn't even be half-way to the combat area before running out of fuel. We currently have aircraft with thousands of miles of range on a full tank, being flown like go-carts or dragster hot-rods with 25% fuel or less because the small size of the maps permits this.

This takes away a huge chunk of tactical decision making, both in regards to mission profiles flown as well as to how reckless we can be. It's an understandable compromise for the sake of playability, or at least it has been up till now.
However, if there's a way to make other compromises for an overall more realistic picture i'm all for it. I'd prefer having realistic map sizes, payload and tactical considerations at the cost of unrealistically spawning in my bomber just outside the coast of the Netherlands, rather than fly the entire sortie on a 1:3 scaled map with a bomber on a light fuel load that's performing way better than the real ones did in similar missions.
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  #29  
Old 03-07-2011, 03:40 AM
Novotny Novotny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauf View Post
I wouldnt mind trying RO2, what is the lastest version of the game called that has a demo? I see ostfront 41-45 on google but not sure if thats an old version/add-on

Cheers
Red Orchestra Ostfront 41-45 is available on Steam for something like the price of a cup of coffee and is absolutely awesome. I cannot recommend it highly enough. Get it, and start playing on the TWB servers, either the Euro or the US ones. Although frankly, I play on both as ping is not really a significant issue.

There is a bit of a learning curve & it's quite unforgiving, but once you get the hang of it I doubt you'll stop playing it. It always surprises me that there aren't more il-2 players on it, as it caters for the same tastes - realism over drama etc.

Enjoy!

edit:: it's £6.99. Money bloody well spent, if you ask me.

LOL, I just thought: have you ever tried to convince someone that IL-2 was worth playing? That's exactly how I feel trying to sell you lot Red Orchestra. It's niche, it's realistic, it's unforgiving, and it's the very best of its type by a country mile.

Last edited by Novotny; 03-07-2011 at 04:01 AM.
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  #30  
Old 03-07-2011, 07:29 PM
Sauf Sauf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Novotny View Post
Red Orchestra Ostfront 41-45 is available on Steam for something like the price of a cup of coffee and is absolutely awesome. I cannot recommend it highly enough. Get it, and start playing on the TWB servers, either the Euro or the US ones. Although frankly, I play on both as ping is not really a significant issue.

There is a bit of a learning curve & it's quite unforgiving, but once you get the hang of it I doubt you'll stop playing it. It always surprises me that there aren't more il-2 players on it, as it caters for the same tastes - realism over drama etc.

Enjoy!

edit:: it's £6.99. Money bloody well spent, if you ask me.

LOL, I just thought: have you ever tried to convince someone that IL-2 was worth playing? That's exactly how I feel trying to sell you lot Red Orchestra. It's niche, it's realistic, it's unforgiving, and it's the very best of its type by a country mile.
Hi Novotny, downloaded steam and got RO Ostfront for $9.99 US, has been downloading for 8 hours now and is only up to 900mb out of 2605mb Hopefully will be finished by the time i get home from work
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