Updated RAF FMs in 1.07.18301

[Jatta Raso]

actually i see it the other way around, the Blues were used, since last beta, to fight horrendously underpowered Reds, and were having joy almost every day; personally i felt much harder to catch a 109 with a Spit IIa then it ever was with the former Spit Ia, when the also former super Spit IIa was almost banned; i also knew i had not unlearned, rather the Spit had its speed chopped, bled E like crazy, could barely climb, and dropped like stone above 15000ft.

what happened i think, is that the Reds had to became smarter and improve their game, the situation became an intensive training against a foe that was better in almost every aspect; so by now, with our refurbished Spits, what i feel and see is the Blues having their arses handed a lot more often; i know they're having a harder time atm.

however i agree the Spit is very difficult to stall, WHEN you know were the limits are; since the Reds are a lot more used to turning fights, this notion has became second nature by now. but i assure you it's very easy for a Spit to enter a spin when you overdo a tight turn.

as for the 109s, well i've seen a lot more crashes due to spins lately, essentially when they try to pull very hard turns at low speed near the ground; my advise, DON'T; without speed, it's half a suicide. then again, what is to be expected? 109 doesn't have that turning ability, it has always been known for being very twitchy pulling such stunts. maybe atm is a bit exaggerated, i cannot say; but for sure not completely fake; i guess they'll have to get used to it somehow until they master it or it's toned down a bit

[Robo.]

I tend to agree with Jatta Raso - comparing the first and the current Beta patch, the RAF has got more chances now, which is good for everyone and it is also closer to historical specs.

Originally Posted by Ernst

I do not known but my opinion is that guys complaining about sptifires are noobies because yesterday i found =AN=Felipe's spitfire at 6.5 K and we need 3 109s to shot down him.

It's all about the pilot. If he started with advantage (21k) and kept his speed up, it is possible to stay on top of 3 109. It's not particulary easy and you have to shoot well. It's the other way round if you bounce him, esp. at lower altitudes (10k). What was the pilot's name if you don't mind me asking?

I smiled reading your opinion on Spitfire, I suggest you try it for a month or so and fly against some competent 109 pilots if you can (there is quite a few out there).

Don't get me wrong, I fly in a RAF Hurricane Squadron (not too much fun at the moment, huh?) but I spent lots of time in all fighters and I very much like the 109. My opinion is that all the FMs are a bit on the dodgy side and it is possible to do crazy stuff in any of them. Not just the LW or RAF in particular.

I agree on the red whining though. It's usually based on lack of discipline and cooperation (especially that!) and inability to accept own failure. You can see this on both sides though, I suggest you ignore this kind of remarks, certainly works for me.

The game is what it is, just have fun. Improve, learn and appreciate the advantages of whichever plane you chose (109, Spitfire, whatever). It takes a good pilot to be succesful in anything. None of that is easier than the other, it's just different approach. The Luftwaffe has got the performance superiority, that's the way it was in RL, but at the end of the day it's just about the pilot's skill and tactics.

[41Sqn_Banks]

Originally Posted by Ernst

There is so much misunderstanding here. I remember seeing a SPITFIRE Ia manual stating that 12 lbs time limits were 3 minutes.

Now you come here and says its 5 minutes for the IA. There is another manual stating 5 minutes but that was for the IIa i guess. There is so many that use general desinformation and try to using data from other aircraft (IIA) to provide performance of others (IA). Or comparing the best data from one ac with worst of others, or using extra arguments and aproximation much beyond the data to prove their points. The data should talk by themselves with minimal interference of the interpreters.

"short periods"

March 1940: http://www.spitfireperformance.com/ap1590b.jpg

August 1940: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachm...3&d=1332111666

November 1940: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachm...9&d=1334724569

"5 minutes"

August 1940: http://www.spitfireperformance.com/dowding.pdf

[Robo.]

Great post, Banks!

Just to evaluate the current model - it is possible to engage the BCC-O in a Spitfire Mk.Ia (100 octane) with following results:

- with mixture at auto rich, full boost (incorrect at +9lbs) and 2600rpm. Any more rpm and engine starts shaking (also incorrect, should be alright even at 3000rpm with the temperatures rising accordingly).

- with mixture at auto lean, full boost, it is possible to engage the BCC-O and fly at +12lbs AND 3000rpm for short period of time. Just watch your temperatures and adjust your power before it's too late.

The altitude where boost reads +9lbs with BCC-O on is around 12.000 feet (seems about right).

With the dodgy mixture and other things still incorrect, the devs are getting there I'd say. The BCC-O and 100 octane fuel can be very useful at lower altitudes, you need to be good with your CEM to get full use of it.

[Flanker35M]

S!

CEM is way too forgiving and simple in this game at this point, FM/DM so porked that really hard to tell if it resembles a RC plane or what? And this goes for both sides, I repeat BOTH SIDES so there will be no commotion that I am biased to either side.

For me the biggest gripe are the oversensitive rudder and elevator trim inputs. I've tried to adjust it in the Controls but no..move the pedals 2-3mm and your plane wiggles like crazy making it hard to keep ball centered on 109 for example. Spitfire and Hurricane has trim so it easens the task a bit for these guys. Elevator trim is the same, making precise adjustments is very hard as merely touching the trim makes plane bop up or down. There is a RANGE of movement for a reason. And just check the Controls -> Axes how LAGGY the input indicators are, like it polls the inputs every 3 seconds or what? Compare to original IL-2 where you could instantly see the effect.

Also controls feel a lot twitchier online than offline. Can be the lag or whatever but very annoying at times when you try to execute precise maneuvers like aiming during a bomb dive or dogfighting.

In short the FM feels too much like the original IL-2 one with minor differences. For one I do not understand making Bf109 twitchy as it was not unless one the VERY edge of it's envelope where one should not be anyway. Where the Hurricane was said to be a stable work horse, but not so much here. Spitfire the full bred fighter but not without vices and punished you if could not tame her proper.

I think Chernarus calls again

[41Sqn_Banks]

I want to add a little bit of interpretation from my side. I don't think the time limits are directly connected to the engine overheat. The reason for the time limits is to ensure a reasonable engine life. Of course the time limits are indirectly connected with engine overheat as the temperatures will be higher with higher settings.

You may run the engine on "5 minute all out" setting for 1 hours without overheating, however this would reduce the time between overhauls considerably (maybe to 20 hours compared to 100 hours).
On the other hand you may run the engine on "30 minute climb" setting for 10 minutes and damage the engine due to overheating, because radiator was shut and speed was to slow.

So a "5 minute" limit doesn't mean it will only overheat after 5 minutes, it may overheat earlier and actions must be taken to prevent this. It also may overheat later or not at all and there won't be any trouble during this flight if the engine is new. There might be trouble in the next flight or you are grounded because of required engine overhaul

[Flanker35M]

S!

But with current system you can abuse the engine at will as the wear/tear/damage does not carry over to next flight. Always a factory fresh plane in use.

[41Sqn_Banks]

Originally Posted by Flanker35M

S!

But with current system you can abuse the engine at will as the wear/tear/damage does not carry over to next flight. Always a factory fresh plane in use.

Indeed. Maybe the sequel/mmo will take care of this.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Banks

So a "5 minute" limit doesn't mean it will only overheat after 5 minutes, it may overheat earlier and actions must be taken to prevent this. It also may overheat later or not at all and there won't be any trouble during this flight if the engine is new. There might be trouble in the next flight or you are grounded because of required engine overhaul

I completely agree and I am aware of what you wrote. I guess the time limit implemented within the sim is just for the game purpose, so people won't abuse it unreasonably. I don't know if that's good or bad or if there is a better way of modelling this.

My comments on the actual usage in the sim had nothing to do with the real life, basically I shared what we found out with our Squad while testing these new planes shortly.

[TomcatViP]

Originally Posted by Ernst

There is so much misunderstanding here. I remember seeing a SPITFIRE Ia manual stating that 12 lbs time limits were 3 minutes.

Now you come here and says its 5 minutes for the IA. There is another manual stating 5 minutes but that was for the IIa i guess. There is so many that use general desinformation and try to using data from other aircraft (IIA) to provide performance of others (IA). Or comparing the best data from one ac with worst of others, or using extra arguments and aproximation much beyond the data to prove their points. The data should talk by themselves with minimal interference of the interpreters.

I do not known but my opinion is that guys complaining about sptifires are noobies because yesterday i found =AN=Felipe's spitfire at 6.5 K and we need 3 109s to shot down him.

The fight lasted almost 10 minutes. The spitfire IIA totally overperformed the 109 high there making loops and barrels rolls while the 109 barely can climb or fly level. If in RL was that way the 109s would have no chance since the BoB fight occured mostly at high altitude, and we known that they were very well matched if we compared the kill/ratios against each other. Someone can say? The Germans have more acs? Ok if you consider the bombers. But fighter vs. fighter they were matched and the british were flying over its territory, the germans had teh fuel problem etc... The truth is, the SPIT accutually in sim is very capable aircraft and certainly well matched with the 109s....

If you have the spits like you want, overperfoming the 109s in every aspect the blue players would give up. Maybe the reds ll feel better historical accuracy shoting 109s at will, killing the 109s in 10 by 1 kill ratio, and flying only against IAs and germans drones. This happened in some IL2 servers after last mods. The servers are killed. If you are blue you have to be extremely sadomasoquist to fly that ultrapack servers. The multiple fms, each one with its own biased fms for one side or other completely destroyed the game...

What do you want in a simplistic way is an all win spitfire model who can zip zap, hang on the prop, barrels rolls like humming bird, rocket climbing, outstanding climbing and energy retention etc... I think you should think yourselves, you are really good pilots? My believe is that you believe spit is that mess because you do not accept defeat and have no humildity to recognize your own fault in your failure.You think you can only be defeated if fighting 3 or 4 109s. If you got defeated by 1 then the game is cheating.

Once i shot down a guy by surprise and he complained: "You shot me down because you got me by surprise. I would expect a chance to fight" And i answered: "Then you suppose i would give you a chance. You are in a spit."

The guys here complain about the spit. I go online and see a complete different situation: Man the spits are very agile, once the pilot sees you and are not a complete noobie is very difficult to put your guns in it, mainly if you are alone. Sometimes they start to whirlwind down there, the only thing they need do to is to pull the elevator as they. They have not to think in a strategy to escape, think about energy, force the adversary to lose their initial energy to after escape in a dive, etc they have just to turn in and endless whirlwinding... So simplistic and ridiculous... However i just accept the performance that i have in the 109 and fly with my brains... Man, is this guys playing the same sim than me?

just my point...

my be the devs would develop two versions of the sim. One for the british commowealth and another for the rest of the world.

Very good post Ernst. I say Amen to all that.