SOW: your thoughts on clickable cockpits and realistic start-up

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by TX-EcoDragon

For me a realistic cockpit interface is a must. IL-2 was the first and hopefully last sim I'll use without clickable cockpits.

I still don't understand why this debate continues. No other developer seems to find this a challenge to model, especially in aircraft as simple as those in WWII, and most all flight sim pilots with experience outside the rather limited world of IL-2 appreciate the need for a cockpit interface that is more than just a facade. Those that want to map everything to their joystick can do so (despite the fact that's not at all realistic), as those who are fine having no idea what position the radiator is without cycling the position and looking at the HUD, or trying to cycle the mags with the keyboard (I usually just get the map popping up instead) can keep on doing it!

If Oleg only polls those that only fly IL-2, the results will clearly not be representative of the actual stance of the flight sim community at large, and certainly real world pilots who try the sims . . .this isn't conjecture, 100% of the time I've demonstrated IL-2 to other pilots, this is one of their first gripes, as it was mine! In addition to the gamers, Oleg SHOULD also care about luring the more serious simmers and pilots to BOB:SOW. . .many of these same folks dismiss IL-2 as little more than a combat game without a second thought as it is, and this is one of the reasons.

I'll still buy SOW for the SU-26 if for nothing else, but I sure do expect more than what is provided in IL-2 with respect to flight physics, CEM and cockpit interface.

I agree with all that you say here!...and I would think it very odd, if SOW is void of the opportunity to interface as you say. Everytime that I think about this subject. I shake my head in disbelief that Oleg cannot see the importance of this. I would think attracting the same type of people who flocked to MSFS looking to opperate and manage an aircraft cockpit, would be a priority of his. Surely the popularity of MSFS was due to the cockpit interface, certainly NOT the FM or grafhics, this should be very apparent to 1C. Him relying on a ancient poll result, limited to those who had IL-2, is in my opinion a big mistake. Just the addition of the SU-26, if offered as a "by the book" aircraft. I think would add thousands of new pilot's just looking for the challenge of flying that one aircraft. Off-line or on-line, in the many air racing/stunt/formation rooms that would appear. I so much want SOW to be more of a state of the art, WW2 prop plane simulator, and less of a arcade type game. He is the only one that could create such a product, and have it near perfect in all respects...I am dreaming of what could be, would be a shame to waste more years waiting for such a product, that may never develope.

[JVM]

Originally Posted by jasonbirder

IE realistic, non-generic, high workload engine, fuel and flight systems to monitor and manage (ideally with corresponding problems/failures etc) alongside a realistic navigation and communication environment...
I guess what we are asking for is a realistic world war 2 combat flight SIMULATOR

So it is not really about clickable cockpit at all, but really CEM...However one of the issues is: if you make a mistake in your CEM leading you to, say, an engine failure enroute to the mission target, how fun will it be to have to crash-land/bail out without having done nothing? At a minimum you would need to have instantly the choice to join as an observer (or actor if you can replace an AI player) in another aircraft of the mission, wouldn't you?

Besides, for for a TrackIR user a good implementation of a kind of clickable cockpit would be the ability to assign a "cockpit" button on either stick or throttle (or whatever!): when you look with the trackIR in the cockpit, if the button is pressed the control/button in the focal point of the view is (kind of) highlighted; when you release the button, the control changes states with the required animation and configuration.
The advantage here is you would have nearly the same instantaneity as if you where activating said control with your finger without loosing your time and awareness trying to point it with a mouse...
Drawback is the need for a TrackIR (or equivalent device) and it would not work very well with "analog" controls (like trims for instance) which are usually controlled by feeling/evaluating the induced effect...

JV

[Rama]

Originally Posted by SlipBall

Off-line or on-line, in the many air racing/stunt/formation rooms that would appear.

You must be kidding there...
air racing/stunt/formation flying is allready well practised on IL2, Lockon, both without clickable pits. have you heard about FAMA?
And even with clickable pits, you can't do air racing/stunt/formation flying while loosing time looking into your virtual pit, moving the mouse and clicking... you need fast and accurate on-time reactions. Even the teams that try to practice formation flying with MSFS (very difficult because of the laggy netcode) dont "click" their clickpits...

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by Rama

You must be kidding there...
air racing/stunt/formation flying is allready well practised on IL2, Lockon, both without clickable pits. have you heard about FAMA?
And even with clickable pits, you can't do air racing/stunt/formation flying while loosing time looking into your virtual pit, moving the mouse and clicking... you need fast and accurate on-time reactions. Even the teams that try to practice formation flying with MSFS (very difficult because of the laggy netcode) dont "click" their clickpits...

If you would read my post you would find that I do not favor using the mouse. The new rooms that I spoke of, would develope from the thousands of new serious pilots who enjoy MSFS, and do not fly IL-2. The cocpit interface would be the draw for them, to come fly SOW.

[Abbeville-Boy]

Originally Posted by Rama

you need fast and accurate on-time reactions. Even the teams that try to practice formation flying with MSFS (very difficult because of the laggy netcode) dont "click" their clickpits...

mapped keys is good then no mouse is needed

msfs laggy netcode, good reason for them to come to fly sow
but they only come if aircraft not for kids like il2 is
su26 would be hard to ignore for them if it is a like real pit

[TX-EcoDragon]

Rama, I'm not sure how many pilots you know who fly modern fighters that actually incorporate a HOTAS system, but if you do know any, ask them what functionality is on their HOTAS. Based on what you have stated, I think you might be surprised to learn what they have to look, and reach for. Certainly in WWII aircraft the design was very different, and pretty much everything but stick, rudder, and brakes requires a reach and removal of hands from the stick/throttle.

I'm fully aware of what proper procedure is in real aircraft, including the fact that grabbing/switching without looking first is frowned upon in the bulk of circumstances, despite what was done in WWII when blindfolded cockpit checks where employed as a component of transition training.

I also am the first to admit that when I'm flying in the middle of a formation of 6 aircraft in the real world that I hate having to put my left hand on the stick, and use my right hand to switch between fuel tanks, while maintaining position in an aircraft as twitchy as the Extra. . .but that is what happens *in real airplanes*. When I fly formation in sims, I have the luxury to not need to bother with a fuel selector in a sim with such a simplistic CEM model as in IL-2, and if I dont want to, I don't have to reach for anything given the rather arcade way in which I can put it all on the HOTAS if I wanted to (which has far more functionality than even that in the real F-16 which the stick is based on).

I also understand the differences that the poor interface we necessarily have with a computer mandates for those that don't build their own cockpits. It’s absurd to say that clicking with a mouse is unrealistic. . of course it is, but it's more accurate than having it all on a HOTAS, and staring at an INOP panel! I certainly don't argue that any of these methods is perfect, but I'll stand by all that I've said, and I base it on decades of simming, real world flying, and communicating and working with the sim community outside of IL-2, and the resulting awareness of the perception of the REST of the flight sim community, and how the lack of a more realistic cockpit interface impacts the reception of Olegs games within that community. Asking only those already in this community is to largelly invalidate the results since the audience is already pre-selected to not care about a lack of cockpit interface!

If anyone wants to argue that they don't see the value, fine go ahead, but that has nothing to do with the fact that it matters to many, many people, and that to overlook it is to make this potentially great sim that much less, and to make the audience which purchases it that much smaller.

It has nothing to do with “[my] satisfaction”. . .my intention is to support this game, and its evolution towards becoming a legitimate flight simulation when viewed through the eyes of the much larger flight sim community out there. . . not to convert anyone to anything, or to enforce anything on them.

As far as the Su-26, the challenge will be getting the flight physics to even remotely approach the fidelity required to do a decent job of modeling aerobatic flight. . .doing a clickable cockpit would be an hour long job in a sim that already incorporates realistic CEM and an animated cockpit. At least that's about how long it usually takes me on the cockpits I've built for X-Plane and MSFS.

[tagTaken2]

Originally Posted by TX-EcoDragon

I'm fully aware of what proper procedure is in real aircraft

How impressive.

Originally Posted by TX-EcoDragon

It has nothing to do with “[my] satisfaction”. . .my intention is to support this game, and its evolution towards becoming a legitimate flight simulation

It's evolution?

Originally Posted by TX-EcoDragon

potentially great sim that much less, and to make the audience which purchases it that much smaller.

What a patronising attitude.

Originally Posted by TX-EcoDragon

the perception of the REST of the flight sim community, and how the lack of a more realistic cockpit interface impacts the reception of Olegs games within that community.

Realistic cockpit interface? Do you also sometimes wish you could use a mouse to open things in real life?
Mousing is slow/tedious/fiddly and utterly unsuited to the game that Oleg is planning, which based on what I've read, is NOT going to be MSFS11, as much as some are wishing for it.

[TX-EcoDragon]

Think what you like, but I love IL-2, and want more people to give this series the same consideration. If you think that's patronizing, I don't know what to tell you. . .but I'd start by saying you should read the entire sentence, your selective quotes always miss the point.

As far as clickable cockpits and mousing around the cockpit, I thought I already stated my thoughts on that. Speaking of which, I take it you haven't seen what is possible with a touchscreen in flight sims. . .well, OTHER flight sims.

[GOZR]

Well here a little example of what can be done with SOW.. take a hard good look at this.. Enjoy and welcome to what will be the norm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLkfx6QxLfg

<<<<-----
Now imagine this into an older WW2 fighter or bomber.

AT the beginning the Track IR was rejected by many or even considered as a cheat .. that change pretty much isn't it.. ? Some new gadgets are coming and it will be fun but you guys need to stay open to news things that make a simulator a good simulator and a lesser game.

I really think that Oleg is re-considering this subjects since he always wanted something that others simulators lacked..

Note for RL pilots: With Il2's community experience during some years i did learn one thing...you have to remember that on forums Sim pilots will know better than RL pilots.

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by tagTaken2

How impressive.



It's evolution?



What a patronising attitude.



Realistic cockpit interface? Do you also sometimes wish you could use a mouse to open things in real life?
Mousing is slow/tedious/fiddly and utterly unsuited to the game that Oleg is planning, which based on what I've read, is NOT going to be MSFS11, as much as some are wishing for it.

Man, you are one negitive dude, chill out.