Gun convergence on Bf 109

[U505]

Hi mates
Since the release of the game i read about spitfire's guns convergence but not reallyabout bf109's.So i let it without any settings but i have the feeling to waste my munitions and it is very difficult to shot down an ennemy plane. Have you set any values? Do you take case of the canons on the E4? your help would be much appreciated for me and a lots of pilots in order to clarify this point.

[SlipBall]

I think the stock setting will work just fine, but it does take practice to develop the skill. Really a matter of holding your fire till you are at a good distance to get a high hit ratio.

[zapatista]

U505

the most important issue with wing-gun convergence is knowing exactly how far the enemy plane is from you, and obviously knowing what convergence distance your wing guns are set at, typically somewhere between 100 and 300 meters, with most preferring somewhere between 150-200 meters. if your convergence is set past 300 meters, much of the munitions energy is lost over the distance, and hit impact will be less (historically correct principle, and i think this energy loss is modeled in il2/CoD series). one reason the polish squadron was so effective in BoB, other then most of them being very highly trained pilots, is that they set their convergence very short at 125 or 150 meters, and would maneuver quickly very close to the enemy plane and then take their shot (making their munitions more hard hitting, and more accurate). a convergence setting is obviously not needed for nose canons, but i believe you could set elevation for some of these nose cannons on certain aircraft. similarly you can set an elevation convergence setting for wing guns, but that is mostly relevant for distances past 300 meters iirc

to learn to recognize how far exactly the enemy plane is from you, read some articles and pilot instruction manuals about using the gun-sight reticule to determine plane distances. typically you set it to the known fighter size of your opponent at a given distance (eg his wing tip will fully fit in the reticule at for ex 200 meters), and then you know by looking if the enemy plane is smaller he is further away, and if larger, he is closer by. then you know that if he is exactly at the right distance from you, all your munitions will hit one small area, if he is closer they will hit on either side etc..

also, look up dome information of deflection shooting, since rarely will you ever have the luxery of sitting right behind an enemy plane at a fixed distance from you and shoot squarely at him for any length of time. with deflection shooting you have to hit him from the right distance AND with the right amount of "leading" (shooting in front of him) so he flies into your gunnery trail

lastly, with the right distance and the right convergence setting, and with the right deflection shooting skill, you still need to aim at some specific vulnerable parts of the aircraft to be effective, eg the cockpit with the pilots, the engines themselves, or the wing roots. often just vaguely shooting into the fuselage itself can be very ineffective, since you dont his any vital parts. there is specific info for various aircraft as to what their specific weak points are, eg for the old il2 sturmovik aircraft for the engine you had to try and hit the oil cooler from underneath the plane, because the engine had armor protecting it from other angles etc

thats the main principles, you might need to do some reading on the subjects to get a more comprehensive idea. eg for attacking bomber formations, read up on the historical tactics used by attacking planes to minimize risk to themselves and make it more effective, the same tactics can be used in CoD/il2 series

[U505]

thank you very much zapatista. It is a very interesting post in wich a lots of us can learn more

[lonewulf]

Well, without wishing to appear argumentative, I'm not so sure I would agree with some of Zapatista's comments. Firstly, the reference to the success of the Polish squadron seems to presuppose that the members of other squadrons set their convergence at much greater ranges. Is there actually any evidence to support this?

Secondly, the statement "a convergence setting is obviously not needed for nose canons, but i believe you could set elevation for some of these nose cannons on certain aircraft" worries me, in fact, I don't follow it at all. Most 109s , for example, had either 2 or 3 centrally mounted forward-firing weapons. These were comprised of a cannon of 15-30 mm (if installed) and two machine guns of either 8 or 13 mm. Because the trajectories of those weapons differ, to be effective, they will have to be harmonised to converge at a predetermined range. Even if you dispensed with the machine guns, you would still have to make a decision about what range you wished to sight your cannon for. Cannons, like MGs, have a trajectory, so the cannon must be adjusted to ensure it's projectiles fall through your line of sight at the desired range - rather than below it or above it.

fFnally, the advice concerning a selected aiming point: "aim at some specific vulnerable parts of the aircraft to be effective" worries me also. There's no doubt that from time to time a WW 2 combat pilot would have the luxury of aiming at the pilot or an engine or even the fabled 'petrol tank behind the pilot's seat' but in general, such precision shooting is completely unattainable under combat conditions - especially in twisting turning fighter on fighter engagements where high deflection angles are often involved. In these circumstances, just hitting the aircraft can be a small miracle let alone killing the pilot or shooting the tops off the spark plug leads.

On a related point, I am still at a loss to understand the separate convergence values that can be inserted in the loadout section of the sim for each weapon. If I select 200m for the horizontal value, how is it possible to insert say 500m for the vertical convergence value. If someone is able to explain how such a setting would be physically possible, I'd really like to know.

[Varrattu]

Since iL2CoD-v1.05.15950 the standard convergence for all BF109E is defined as follows:

nose mounted MG 2x Rheinmetall-Borsig MG 17 (7.92mm)
vertical convergence == 400 m (Visierschuss)
horizontal convergence == 420 m (Kreuzung)

wing mounted MG 2x Rheinmetall-Borsig MG 17 (7.92mm)
vertical convergence == 500 m (Visierschuss)
horizontal convergence == 300 m (Kreuzung)

wing mounted MG 2x Oerlikon/Ikaria MG FF (20mm)
vertical convergence == 500 m (Visierschuss)
horizontal convergence == 300 m (Kreuzung)

wing mounted MG 2x Oerlikon/Ikaria MG FF/M (20mm)
vertical convergence == 500 m (Visierschuss)
horizontal convergence == 300 m (Kreuzung)

There is a good reason why vertical standard convergence is 500 m (Visierschuss). The German iL2CoD munition types have been animated in a version "verbessert" (improved). The cartridges are of high-velocity type for maximum performance in aircraft machine guns and give higher pressure than other 7,9 mm rounds.


Please have a look:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=24547

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...572#post396572

~S~ Varrattu

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by lonewulf

On a related point, I am still at a loss to understand the separate convergence values that can be inserted in the loadout section of the sim for each weapon. If I select 200m for the horizontal value, how is it possible to insert say 500m for the vertical convergence value. If someone is able to explain how such a setting would be physically possible, I'd really like to know.

This is a very easy concept to visualize...your friend is a good distance away from you. You want to hit him/her with a snowball, you realize that you need to give a greater angle upwards when thrown, so as to not fall short and to make that hit....drag/gravity!

[VO101_Tom]

Originally Posted by zapatista

...(eg his wing tip will fully fit in the reticule at for ex 200 meters)...

This is true only, if the plane wingtip is 20m (medium bombers). The fighters wingtip is ~10m, so if you see a fighter, which wingtip fully fit the circle, it is 100 m distance.

U505
very simple the calculation: wingtip meter X how fit into the circle X 10 = distance

You can download the Horrido - Des jägers Schiessfibel engish translated document from here: http://www.mission4today.com/index.p...etails&id=3663. Read it, you will learn everything, what you want to know from air gunnery (it was published in 1944).

I think the bigger problem is the inaccuracy of the guns. Now totally unnecessary playing with any convergence settings, if the gun just shots around the target:

http://youtu.be/2EBTP6IEUbU


(I was landed with 30° Flap, retracted gear, so the 109 nose pointed low enough to able to compare the shots with the canvas. The distance is 100 m (measured in the FMB). The function and using of that canvas explained here: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...8&postcount=10

[VO101_Tom]

Originally Posted by lonewulf

...
On a related point, I am still at a loss to understand the separate convergence values that can be inserted in the loadout section of the sim for each weapon. If I select 200m for the horizontal value, how is it possible to insert say 500m for the vertical convergence value. If someone is able to explain how such a setting would be physically possible, I'd really like to know.

Maybe this explain

[vranac]

Originally Posted by VO101_Tom

I think the bigger problem is the inaccuracy of the guns. Now totally unnecessary playing with any convergence settings, if the gun just shots around the target:

http://youtu.be/2EBTP6IEUbU


(I was landed with 30° Flap, retracted gear, so the 109 nose pointed low enough to able to compare the shots with the canvas. The distance is 100 m (measured in the FMB). The function and using of that canvas explained here: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...8&postcount=10

Tom, did you look that track from outside view?
Maybe your plane is shakin a bit because of cannons shoting.
I think plane was fixed somehow when guns was adjusted on target.
If I remember right some picture was shown here from desert and two mechanics were sitting on wings of the plane to stabilize it.

By the way very good idea