Make the game more "believabale"

[Crni vuk]

If there ever will be more games in the future please consider it to make them more realistic. More authenticity regarding the combat.

Dont get me wrong I am not asking now for all sudden a 100% realistic repesentation of every aspect as realistic ranges for all guns would lead to a quite cheesy experience (see some of the mods which give the guns their real range and penetration but leave the size of the maps untouched) where you see heavy tanks even more sitting in the courner of some map sniping any tank on long range.

But what I am asking for is just the removal of frustrating aspects or the mere "luck" if you want so. Its the parts where Panthers and Tigers take shoots by the ISU152 and shrug it of sometimes like it would be nothing. Same for the SU100. So many times where you shoot the side of the Tiger II turret with the SU100 or ISU152 and nothing happens as its "to far away" for the game. It would be good to get also more a realistic representation of the penetration then the arbitrary system which is in use now that gives guns like the soviet 85mm or the german 5mm by the Puma/Panzer III a rather unrealistic power as you see the Puma beeing almost as effective like the Panzer IV G with its 5mm gun just when you get close enough while on a realistic point of view it should have no chance at all to damage the KV85 or T34 from the front. Same thing about the US 90mm where you sometimes see penetrations on long ranges but other times you have issues to do any damage at all even when close while I seen the 85mm of the KV85 penetrating the Pershings front ...

All this when you know something about the guns, their teoretical and "real" performance can lead to a "why did this happen now?" situation where you KNOW it should penetrate but it didnt. It seems that Mow decided to give some guns (Panzer IV H) not its real power while other tanks some teoretical power which they never had. It seems that many guns get the penetration of rare ammunition like the Panther with APCRC or all 5cm guns. The 17pf seems to as well use the APDS as base when it really had extremly poor conditions with those ammuntion you should not be able to hit anthing with it as it had very bad performance in real life. I just happens to many times that you hit the side of the tank and all thath appens is that its detracked when it should as well hit the armor of the tank and not just its track.

As said I am not asking for realism in everything. But its just not very believable when you see a 100 or 152mm shell bounce of that weak side armor of certain tanks or even some vehicles survive a direct 152mm hit from the HE shell. MoW creates already now a much more realistic feeling then most other WW2 strategy games. But I think they could achieve a better combat experience particularly when you fight with the allied nations against the heavy tanks in a realistic sense as they should be a lot more vulnerable from the side OR some guns should not loose so much penetration power. As its now you sometimes have to drive up to the Tiger II, Jagdtiger or IS3 where you can almost hug them just to penetrate the flank.

[Nikitns]

hmm, i've never had those problems.


Keep in mind the angle of ur and the enemy tank, as well as height differences.

[[SOE]No.Mam]

i think "small" guns like puma, greyhound... are too powerfull in this "down-scaled" game.

i think also, game have massive problems by shooting tanks/vehicle into their side. sometimes i had 2x more penetration as sidearmor from enemys tank - 3-5 shoots into side ... but nothing happens.

also engine errors by calculating terrain/ground. why can enemies hit me, ... but i cant hit enemy on "flat" ground? specialy in fights infanty vs. infantry.

changeing some pententrations values for "ballancing" is the worst way. all units should have their "realistic" values (far as possible) and ballancing nations should be made only with price from units.

[Crni vuk]

Originally Posted by Nikitns

hmm, i've never had those problems.


Keep in mind the angle of ur and the enemy tank, as well as height differences.

that is not what I am talking about. Angle should and does matter. Thats a good thing. But remember vehicles like the Panther for example had only 40mm of side armor. Thats not even enough to give any protection against the soviet 76mm gun which could penetrate it on pretty much any distance (I think up to 1000m). The issue with the Soviet 76mm is the acuracy like with many soviet guns. But thast another story.

I am glad the game seems to model the lower part of the hull (got a few tanks that way when you shoot uphill).

But what I am talking about are clear situations where you have no realy big angle or even no one at all and see the Tiger II taking flank shoots by quite powerfull guns (152,122, 100, 90mm etc.). But this doesnt only happen with German vehicles. I got such situations as well with the Tiger 1 trying to penetrate the side of the IS1, IS2 or the Panther the side of the Pershing etc. And as No.Mam said, smaller guns like the 5cm are extremly overpowered. The Panzer III could "eventualy" with APCR amunition do some damage to the T34 (any version) if it gets close enough. As said "If". The Panzer III was a battle tank afterall. But the Puma wasnt. Its a recon vehicle so it was not meant to engange tanks. Yet in game it does very often and succesfully. But I doubt the Puma got any APCR rounds as those have been very rare and the material needed for those rare shells have been probably spend more for the Panther and Tiger which had more use for them.

[KnightFandragon]

That Puma's 50mm was put there to engage tanks. The thing in the game is the Puma is way to accurate when its on the move. Its like the best Anti Tank Vehicle in the game, its cheaper then dirt, faster then that French TGV Train plus it has more ammo then ti really should. I swear I read somewhere it only had 12 rounds. In game it needs to be made stupid inaccurate to discourage people from using it like a guerilla vehicle....they just run it in circles around the enemy tank and blow the hell out of everything. Atleast it has butter for armor so it dies...just nothing can ever track it before it kills the target.

[Zeke Wolff]

The Sd.Kfz. 234/2 "Puma" was not designed to engage tanks - it got a 5 cm KwK 39/1 main gun so that it could defend itself when and if it was needed to do so. It´s main defense were its high speed and it was a recon vehicle, and as a such, not meant to fight other vehicles.

It carried 55 rounds for it´s main 5 cm gun, and 1,050x7.92mm rounds for its coaxial MG 42 machine gun.

The later Sd.Kfz. 234/4 which carried a 7.5cm PaK40 L/46 main gun carried only 12 rounds.

~Zeke.

[Crni vuk]

Originally Posted by KnightFandragon

That Puma's 50mm was put there to engage tanks.

Even if it would have been designed to engange armor (which it wasnt by the way) the power is still way to high as I assume that MoW is basing the penetration on the very rare APCR amunition which was stoped to be in production from 1943 onwards for every 50mm (and smaller) guns to save the material for biger calibers like the 75mm and onwards and around 1944 there was no APCR in use with smaller guns anymore. The Panzer IV, Stugs, Panther and Tigers had a lot more use for such shells. Hence why I complain that the Panzer IV H is doing so poorly in MoW when it was a quite decent vehicle able to take out the Sherman and T34 on high distance.

[szebus]

Originally Posted by [SOE]No.Mam

... all units should have their "realistic" values (far as possible) and ballancing nations should be made only with price from units.

Hmmm, Yes but if not DMS than You can do it in the SOE mod. Can't wait for this for SHOWW2 was my all time favorite.

[Crni vuk]

Meh ... happend again, I really dont get it what the idea was behind this "penetration system" : /

IS2 taking side shoots from the Tiger I 4 times ... 5 times ... nothing ~ though strange enough the tank loost the tracks on the OPPOSITE side !. But the IS2 seemd to have no problem penetrating the Tiger 1 armor from range even when angled ... (talking about a boost of guns which have been different in real, penetration power of the IS2 main gun wasnt much better compared to the 88mm of the Tiger I for example)

Please for the next game do try to get a penetration system with a bit more logic behind it to reward people which try a succesfull flanking manouver as at the moment it is painfully hard to achieve this and it often enough starts in battles to be a situation of luck when it really should be a no brainer D: . I do agree that angles should matter but powerfull guns should overmatch enemy armor the 88mm or 85mm should have not that much issues with the weak side of most tanks.

It is one reason why we see so few times tanks like the IS2 or Tiger 1 when you have to break your neck to "flank" the enemy succesfuly (it has to be a obvious 90° angle shoot and even that isnt always a succesfull penetration ...) so one is just saving the points trying to go for the REAL powerfull stuff so he there is no need to worry about "angles" and such that much and just blow any enemy armor away. I do that many times where I think if I should go for a Tiger 1 or just save it for the Tiger II or Elephant and not worry anymore. I like the realistic approach the game tries but often enough it seems to have not that much logic behind it for me at least.

[KnightFandragon]

Penetration still doenst make any sense to me eitehr but I think you dont usually penetrate heavy tanks b/c thier armor is armor_heavy and so somewhere, hidden deep in the bowels of the game are shield Hitpoints which you have to go through before you can start to penetrate and kill stuff. I say this b/c in my games I lined up my KV6K, Panthers and Tigers of both the I and II then let them shoot otehr Panthers. and of the 3 tank guns, a 76, 75, 88 and a King Tiger 88 the Pantehr took 3 hits...its like it takes 3 hits to damage the armor enough to start to penetrate armor. I know this game has "damage buildup" but idk hwo exactly that works but thats what im figuring it is. Also, ive shot the Tiger I with my KV6K and its modded 76 and the Tiger takes no less than 2 hits in the side to kill it, no matter what range, angle....only shots from resonable angles though. I let the Tigers shoot my KV and it took quite a pounding but it to died after like 6-7 shots on its front from teh Tiger gun....all guns of which I modded to be more powerful. The damage build up thing makes sense again b/c when i played my mission I got into a pissing match with the pantehr I put on it as well as all the Panzerfaust on the map hitting my tank and a Panzer IV killed my tank despite its penetration being a MAX of 125 and mt tanks armor is 160......going by just numbers that is impossible but the damage build up it then makes sense...my tank had been hit so much its front hull just gave in. So im sure thats what goes on in MP.