Best General of WW2?

[KnightFandragon]

Originally Posted by Nikitns

Which means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING because each Soviet division was understrength in the extreme during that time. 1000-2000 men per division.

Also destroying =! killing/capturing all soldiers in that division.

Whether or not he totally destroyed the 50 Divisions or not I find it amazing in that he was victorious against that many divisions w/ what he had to fight with, which im sure was not nearly as many divisions not sure but im sure he was outnumbered

[Crni vuk]

Originally Posted by FM_Von_Manstein

The deaths of soviets sounds pretty good to me. I'm pretty sure the tens millions of people that suffered under Soviet occupation and communist rule would agree with that statement.

I think both of you should try to set your heads straight. You know. Youre not talking about some kind of puppet show with toys but a war and a terrible one at that with the death of many people which fought hard on each side of the conflict. You could at least try to show some respect to those peopole. Regardles which side it was.

But even with all of your love for the glorious Mahnstein maybe you you should also not forget his twisted side accepting the death of millions of jews and crimes regarding the enemy forces and even the own population later when they retreated back to Germany (field anweisungen and orders from the front proved that). Mahnstein was a intelligent tactician. But he was also a opportunist and his conections with the nazi party cant be denied. That many of them have broken with the Nazis when the war changed and did not came out in Germanies favour is understandable but it doesnt change that military Generals have welcome the Fuhrer and his loyal mens as long the army was runing from victory to victory.

If there are men I respect then it are Henning von Tresckow or Erwin von Witzleben who have from the far begining in 1933~36 seen the danger coming from Hitler and his party and started to get some opposition against him. While no one of them have been democrats they had some kind of honor. That for sure. I would even go so far to say that Rommel was a men that deserved much respect. But even he was more or less just a oportunist. Many of them had a lot to gain from the Nazis and as long they seen victories all was fine.

I am not surprised anymore from the strange ideals and thoughts people throw around in WW2 forums anymore either cause of stubborn feelings and false honor for the German Reich or of sher ignorance about the topic. What I am surprised is how this topic isnt still closed yet.

[Zeke Wolff]

Guys, if you want to discuss how "great" it is that Manstein killed all those Soviet soldiers, please do it somewhere else. There is several other forums you can visit if you like to discuss that kind of things. Feel free to discuss which General were the best of WWII, but keep it civilized please.

There is absolutely no reason to mention that you personally think that it is great that so-and-so-many soldiers from this-or-that nation were killed by a certain general. If this discussion continues in the same manner as before, I´ll close down the thread.

Respect the dead, no matter which side they fought on, because they all fought for something that they believed in, no matter if the cause were the wrong one or not.

//Zeke Wolff, Moderator.

[FM_Von_Manstein]

Originally Posted by Crni vuk

I think both of you should try to set your heads straight. You know. Youre not talking about some kind of puppet show with toys but a war and a terrible one at that with the death of many people which fought hard on each side of the conflict. You could at least try to show some respect to those peopole. Regardles which side it was.

But even with all of your love for the glorious Mahnstein maybe you you should also not forget his twisted side accepting the death of millions of jews and crimes regarding the enemy forces and even the own population later when they retreated back to Germany (field anweisungen and orders from the front proved that). Mahnstein was a intelligent tactician. But he was also a opportunist and his conections with the nazi party cant be denied. That many of them have broken with the Nazis when the war changed and did not came out in Germanies favour is understandable but it doesnt change that military Generals have welcome the Fuhrer and his loyal mens as long the army was runing from victory to victory.

If there are men I respect then it are Henning von Tresckow or Erwin von Witzleben who have from the far begining in 1933~36 seen the danger coming from Hitler and his party and started to get some opposition against him. While no one of them have been democrats they had some kind of honor. That for sure. I would even go so far to say that Rommel was a men that deserved much respect. But even he was more or less just a oportunist. Many of them had a lot to gain from the Nazis and as long they seen victories all was fine.

I am not surprised anymore from the strange ideals and thoughts people throw around in WW2 forums anymore either cause of stubborn feelings and false honor for the German Reich or of sher ignorance about the topic. What I am surprised is how this topic isnt still closed yet.

Your a fool, neither Manstein or Rommel believed in Nazi Ideology or were members of the Nazi party. Both were extremely skilled professional soldiers who served Germany, not Nazi causes. The only good German general that was a Nazi was Model. Most of Germany's greatest generals were not Nazis at all. Same thing with Russian generals, many did not agree with Stalin's evil policies at all. But they served their country, the Motherland, not Stalin.

[Zeke Wolff]

FM Von Manstein:

The next time you call any other forum user "retard" or "fool" or any similar insulting nickname, you will receive a warning and ultimately, a ban. If you can´t post messages without resorting to insults to other forum users, don´t post at all.

//Zeke Wolff, Moderator.

[Crni vuk]

Originally Posted by FM_Von_Manstein

Your a fool, neither Manstein or Rommel believed in Nazi Ideology or were members of the Nazi party. Both were extremely skilled professional soldiers who served Germany, not Nazi causes. The only good German general that was a Nazi was Model. Most of Germany's greatest generals were not Nazis at all. Same thing with Russian generals, many did not agree with Stalin's evil policies at all. But they served their country, the Motherland, not Stalin.

You should read over my post again. Just a bit more carefully cause I will only explain it one time for you here (I dont want to sound cocky, but it seems you made up your mind already and thus I see it a bit pointless to discuss that).

If you dont know about the word "oportunism" then you should eventualy also google that one.

Beeing a member of the Nazi party and suporting the Nazi party are 2 seperate things. Even the Allies (most of them) realized that after WW2 and have not punished everyone or dealt with everyone on the same level. There have been members, nominal members and confidants. Mahnstein and Rommel have been at least people on the level confidants. As high ranking officers anyway. It is more likely that they have been nominal members meaning they supported the changes of the Nazis particuilarly to the military. Have they been alone in such thinking ? Definetly not. But it tells a lot about their cahracter. Rommel had once the chance to talk with a captured SAS officers and he confessed to him what fine soldiers the Brits are and that both should fight the real enemy, the reds. But, if not for the differences was the answer of the SAS member, what differences asked Rommel. The things with the jews explained the SAS. And Rommel countered, that the jews would be politics and thats not a the concern of a soldier.

Many of them, Mahnstein as well have been oportunists and supporters of the Nazi party particularly as long the German military was victorious. That is fact. It can be read from dossiers, field orders, personal oppinions etc. all those things are free and available for everyone at the German Bundesarchiv.

Originally Posted by FM_Von_Manstein

Both were extremely skilled professional soldiers who served Germany, not Nazi causes. The only good German general that was a Nazi was Model

Not serving Nazi causes ? Well then tell us "Mahnstein" what kind of idea was behind the whole war and conquering of east from a German perspective. I suggest you to go and read again personal notes of German generals. They knew very well particularly as the intelligent tacticians they were what a defeat of the Sovietunion would mean to it's citizens of Russia and its satelite states they accepted the fact for example that the German effort to remove most of the Ukrain wheat would cause a very large death killing 100.000 if not Millions. Many people have known and read mein Kampf which was Hitlers book and described very well his targets. So there is no member of the Military that could simply say he would fullfill his honor and duty not knowing about the raid in the east. There is a difference between defence and attack. And that for a reason. Hands down not many army personal are saints. But we are talking about the Mahnsteins and other German generals conection to the Nazi party and their goals. To say that they had not the same relation to them compared to people like Heidrich or Kaltenbrunner (chief of Gestapo) is obvious. But telling with al seriousness those people would not have served the Nazi party and most important Hitler as willing deeds is quite wrong as well.

[FM_Von_Manstein]

The desire to conquer another country has nothing to do with Nazism. Obviously Manstein knew that many Russians would die in the process of the war. But that's what war is. Manstein or most German generals for the matter did not endorse genocide or racism. Rommel would have shot any soldier who displayed such ideals. Many German generals had a great deal of respect for Hitler, he saved their country, that's just human nature. Being professional soldiers they would like to see their country succeed in warfare, and obviously had a great deal of devotion to their country. But they were not devoted to Nazi causes. They did not believe in extermination, and as the war dragged on they knew that Hitler was destroying the country they loved. They knew that their service to their country meant nothing because it was being run by a mad man. But they carried on because they wanted to defend their people.

As for the German generals being opportunists and supporters of the Nazi party. They might have believed in the changes made to the armed forces, but they did not believe in the Nazi ideals. They supported the Nazi Party because they wanted Germany to be powerful, not because they believed in it's politics.

[Crni vuk]

Originally Posted by FM_Von_Manstein

The desire to conquer another country has nothing to do with Nazism. Obviously Manstein knew that many Russians would die in the process of the war. But that's what war is. Manstein or most German generals for the matter did not endorse genocide or racism. Rommel would have shot any soldier who displayed such ideals. Many German generals had a great deal of respect for Hitler, he saved their country, that's just human nature. Being professional soldiers they would like to see their country succeed in warfare, and obviously had a great deal of devotion to their country. But they were not devoted to Nazi causes. They did not believe in extermination, and as the war dragged on they knew that Hitler was destroying the country they loved. They knew that their service to their country meant nothing because it was being run by a mad man. But they carried on because they wanted to defend their people.

Youre missing the point. I will repeat it again. I suggest you go and read dossiers, field orders and personal entries of those Generals. As well Manstein. Then we can contiune on the subject. You seem to have a twisted view on the German military of WW2. I am not comparing the German OKH and its leaders to the Nazi party. But they have been more then just soldiers and many of those Generals did not only just accepted war crimes but also enganged with their troops in it some more others less it is NOT a simple black vs white scenario that for sure and to paint a acurate picture about everything is very hard maybe even impossible (we will knever know all details). But Germany spend the last 60 years working that history up. And I think if anyone has a good view about it then it are the German historians. And they spend a lot of time and effort in understanding characters like either Rommel or Manstein, Kluge, Witzleben, Tresckow etc. you name it. So believe it or not. There cant be a doubt that Manstein was part of all the war effords and played his role. How big that was and how much responsible he was as individual is up to historians to discuss. For sure there is a lot of conversity and yet not solved historical events ~ for example how close was Manstein to the Nazi doctrine really ?. But there cant be a doubt that he was more then just only a soldier and usual character by its time.

Also, "the others did it as well" rhetoric is =/= excuse. It is very unprofessional to argue that way regarding history and no serious historian would do that so we as usual people should not either. It shows a lack of fundamental understanding regarding WW2 and its causes. Its the same stupid rhetoric like comparing war crimes with each other for example which is a disgrace to the dead. Many of the right wing supporters label Dresden and the bombing as "allied war crime" for example. But thats foolish. Ever heard, they sow the wind and reap the whirlwind.

Originally Posted by FM_Von_Manstein

As for the German generals being opportunists and supporters of the Nazi party. They might have believed in the changes made to the armed forces, but they did not believe in the Nazi ideals. They supported the Nazi Party because they wanted Germany to be powerful, not because they believed in it's politics.

Right, cause many of them did not believed in "defeating the communistic Untermenschen, called Russians, Balkans etc." is a good thing or at least not a bad thing. Dont be silly. Not everyone was a die hard Nazi. Probably only very few. But most of them did not had much condolence for Russians. Regardles if it was war or not. Because that :

Originally Posted by FM_Von_Manstein

The deaths of soviets sounds pretty good to me.

Was what many thought about it.

[FM_Von_Manstein]

Originally Posted by Crni vuk

Was what many thought about it.

Precisely, to the people of the Satellite states the Germans must have looked at as the do gooders for fighting the evil Soviet Oppressors.

[Crni vuk]

Yeah like the Ukrain or White Russian population which have welcome German units as liberators till they realised what a conquer by the Germans meant.

Either way how you see it. Hitler or Stalin. Neither the one nor the other was a good choice.

I remember a quote from a Russian soldier when he was asked about the War that he said, in the end it was a decision between 2 dicators. And he simply choose the one who spoke Russian.

But what I meant was the view of German high military officers on the Russian population in General. And they had less concerns in killing masses of Russians then compared to Brits or French for example which somewhat was in favour of the general Nationalsocialistic doctrine of the Rassenlehre and Untermenschen beeing inferior to the Germanic population. Hands down, if there really would not have been at least in the base of it some overlaping of the Nazi-ideology with what some military officers believed the Nazis would never have been so succesfull in their attempts. Its not like there have not been already a oppsition present since the 1933 even from the military side (See Tresckow and a few other Generals which wanted already in that time to remove Hitler), but those had a very hard time to convince other military personal of their point of view and explain Hitle was a danger to the Reich. For obvious reasons. Particularly after situations like the Munich Agreement it became almost impossible to search for any critical voices cause what people feared didnt happened. War in 1938 with Britain and France what many officers feared since no one believed that it could be won at that point and even the Invasion of Poland many thought (cause of 1938 ) the Brits and French would remain quiet again. It was to late at some point though and those voices that have been critical about the Wehrmachts progression in war efforts and Nazi ideas have been removed from the Military (Blomberg–Fritsch Affair) and replaced with loyal to the Nazi party officers. This includes as well others like Manstein, Rommel and many other Generals which have been even to the end loyal to the Nazi gouvernement. Since both have dissagreed to any attempt of removing Hitler even after it was eminent that the war was loost, at least Staufenberg realised that even though he was a Nazi suporter in the begining. I repeat Manstein might not have been a Nazi in the traditional sense but he was in some aspects close to the Nationalsocialistic ideals and ideas. There is for example a order from 1941 "Reichenau Order" by Manstein which explicit involved the killing of jews.


Erich von Manstein - Indopedia
However, von Manstein did issue an order on November 20, 1941: his version of the infamous "Reichenau Order" [2], which equated "partisans" and "Jews" and called for draconic measures against them. Hitler and Field Marshal von Rundstedt recommended the "Reichenau Order" as being exemplary and encouraged other generals to issue similar orders. Not all did, in fact, it seems that only a minority did do so. Von Manstein was among those who voluntarily issued such an order. It stated that:

This struggle is not being carried on against the Soviet Armed Forces alone in the established form laid down by European rules of warfare.
Behind the front too, the fighting continues. Partisan snipers dressed as civilians attack single soldiers and small units and try to disrupt our supplies by sabotage with mines and infernal machines. Bolshevists left behind keep the population freed from Bolshevism in a state of unrest by means of terror and attempt thereby to sabotage the political and economic pacification of the country. Harvests and factories are destroyed and the city population in particular is thereby ruthlessly delivered to starvation.
Jewry is the middleman between the enemy in the rear and the remains of the Red Army and the Red leadership still fighting. More strongly than in Europe they hold all key positions of political leadership and administration, of trade and crafts and constitutes a cell for all unrest and possible uprisings.
The Jewish Bolshevik system must be wiped out once and for all and should never again be allowed to invade our European living space.
The German soldier has therefore not only the task of crushing the military potential of this system. He comes also as the bearer of a racial concept and as the avenger of all the cruelties which have been perpetrated on him and on the German people."
...
"The soldier must appreciate the necessity for the harsh punishment of Jewry, the spiritual bearer of the Bolshevik terror. This is also necessary in order to nip in the bud all uprisings which are mostly plotted by Jews."
(Nuremberg trials proceedings, Vol. 20, pp. 639 - 645 [3])

Jewry is the middleman between the enemy in the rear and the remains of the Red Army and the Red leadership still fighting.
This is exactly one of the propagandistic phrases carried out by the Nazi party for many years. As well before the war. Comparing all jews with Bolschewiks or label them as enemies to the Reich. Though I dont have to explain to you know how idiotic that kind of rhetoric was ? A person as inteligent like Manstein might have been a good tactician. But he's not simply the honorable soldier many (even in Germany) tried to portayed him during the 60s cause it helped to create a clean image of the Wehrmacht for the Cold War efforts. Today thankefull we have a better understanding of many things. Ideology should never taint our view on history.