How to find best Infantry weapons

[Korsakov829]

The DP LMG is great if a Russian is using it. I find it much more fun then a MG42.

And the first Assualt rifle prototype came in the end of the 19th century. I really just hate the STG 44.

[FM_Von_Manstein]

Originally Posted by KnightFandragon

Doesnt the DP jam alot b/c of that big disk clip it has? Anywho, the PPSH is nice....THe RUssians did it well, combine a Squad LMG w/ a SMG...71 round drum mag in a tiny little portable package. Of course idk how common they were, what units used them or actually how reliable they were but in every game PPSH's absolutly wreck stuff.

PPSH was very common. Russian infantry we're no differently armed than German infantry.

K98s - Mosin Nagants

MP40s - PPSHs

MG34/42s - DPs

G43 - SVT-40

As for reliability...

Some of the PPSh's drawbacks included the difficulty of reloading, the tendency of the drums to jam (solved by the box magazines) and the high risk of accidental discharge when dropped - the last being a fault common to all open bolt submachine gun designs. Despite these drawbacks, the PPSh-41 was still admired by Soviet soldiers for its low recoil, reliability, and lethality at close range. The PPSh fired the standard 7.62x25mm pistol round such as used in the TT-33 pistol.

Serious problems with the drum mag, so the regular stick mags were preferable. So it was 35 rounds vs 71 but problems with jamming.

[Nikitns]

Originally Posted by FM_Von_Manstein

Lolfail, MP 44 isn't the real name. Its STG 44, and its an Assault Rifle, the 1st, and a few years later. Wow...The AK 47, looks a lil similar eh? Commies are just too stupid to design their own guns XD

Ya, and that is why a part of the former "commie" arms industry is the 2# biggest in the world today (arms sales from Russia is only less than from USA).

[FM_Von_Manstein]

Originally Posted by Nikitns

Ya, and that is why a part of the former "commie" arms industry is the 2# biggest in the world today (arms sales from Russia is only less than from USA).

And that industry is based around German inventions. AK 47 is a copy of the STG-44, the RPG a copy of the Panzerfaust. Russians don't invent guns they copy them.

[Crni vuk]

Pretty good and short answer about the relation of the Stgw and AK47 in my eyes.
aksville

Q: I often hear many say that the AK-47 was a direct copy of the STG44, what truth is there to this?
Really, what would a tank operator know about mechanisms needed for a gun especially the best assault rifle of all time. Do these two guns operate on the same basic concept and just simply a copy of a german design, or is the AK-47...... (2 answers - asked 18 months ago)
A: Not a "direct copy", but "heavily influenced" is probably fair
The AK-47 is not a direct copy or clone of the STG-44.



For starters, they fire a different cartridge. The AK-47 is chambered in 7.62x39mm, and the STG-44 in 7.92x33mm. Further, Kalishnikov (the creator of the AK-47) used the locking lug design of the M1 Garand and the trigger and safety group designed by John M. Browning. Finally, the AK action is a rotating bolt and the STG is a tilting bolt. So, there are clearly some differences.



That said, it seems pretty clear that Kalishnikov heavily borrowed from the STG-44. The two main pieces of evidence:



1) The overall design and form of the weapon is very, very similar. In fact, people who don't know much about guns often mistake a STG-44 for an AK-47.



2) Hugo Schmeisser, the man who designed by the STG-44, was captured by the Russians in 1945 and forced to work on weapon design for them. Schmeisser was not allowed to go home until 1952. Those seven years Schmeisser was working in the USSR match up pretty neatly with the development of the AK-47.



Kalishnikov (who is still alive), denies to this day that he copied the STG-44. And in a literal sense, he is correct. There are significant differences. On the other hand, the similarities are obvious even to someone who knows little about guns.



My personal view: Kalishnikov should get credit for significantly improving on the German STG-44. But would he have invented the AK-47 if the Germans hadn't invented the STG-44? I doubt it.

Interesting might be as well that the idea or concept of assault rifles was there long before the Stgw was designed. But the Stgw was definetly the most succesfull design

Weapons with similar use or design to the Stgw have been the Charlton Automatic Rifle, Chauchat (more machineguns actualy but they had a curved magazine and shared many principles with modern assault rifles), Fedorov Avtomat, Cei-Rigotti, Mondragón rifle or the M1941 Johnson machine gun. It is very hard to really differentiate between rifles, automatic rifles or light machineguns since many shared similar qualities. Most of the weapons mentioned used quite big calibers but there have been ideas to shorten them already in the 20s of the 1900 century. The Japanese 6.5x50mm Arisaka rifle cartridge for the Fedorov Avtomat and the 6.5x52mm Mannlicher-Carcano for the Cei-Rigotti. Though relability issues and complex mechanisms made those weapons very rare. But it was a new concept afterall.

The Ribeyrolles 1918 is as well a extremly interesting design and might come as close as possible to the concept of assault rifles.

[FM_Von_Manstein]

Obviously the AK-47 was far superior to the STG-44. But the Germans were fighting a war at the the time, they didn't have time or resources. If Germany had won WW2 the STG-44 would have likely been continuously upgraded and developed on further, just like the AK-47.

[Crni vuk]

No doubts about that. But one should not forget that the German Army adopted at some point in the 50s the G3 rifle for its newly formed army the Bundeswehr (based of the Cetme Rifle design, created with help of German engineers in Spain). The Evolution didnt simply stoped after the war and designs got further changed and improved which eventualy lead to prototypes like the Stgw45 which was the base for the Cetme rifle and thus the G3 after the war was over many engineers moved to new companies or worked for other nations in licence so different nations improved certain designs and characteristics or used it as base for new weapons like th M60 for example which includes certain aspects of several captured German small arms like the FG42, MG42 etc. The G3 and similar weapons (FN Fal, Israelian Galil etc.) can be seen as so called battle rifles with automatic fire then assault rifles which usualy have lower range and cartridges. And only after Eugen Stoners development of lighter weapons chambered for the 5.56x45mm (well more the development of his assistants but nontheless) the idea of assault rifles in the traditional sense got adopted again with the M15 and 16 family for example. I think the choice of the 5.56 was not a good one for the future. But it probably was bette compared to the rather big 7.62mm NATO which had a pretty huge recoil and was quite heavy since the soldier can carry less amunition compared to the more light weight 5.56. Though it seems future designs might eventualy go for a combination of both bullets eventualy which lead to developments like the 6.8x43mm or cartridges of similar size. But many weapons seem also to utilize the powerfull 7,62x51mm NATO again like the HK417 for its excelent stoping power and accuracy. Evolution of assault rifles though is pretty much at its peak with powder bassed weapons and its unlikely that one can expect again such huge jumps like either the Avtomat Federov, Stgw or Ak since most weapons today are already at the maximum of what is possible in effectivness and inovation I mean we look back on a history of 80 years now (aprox). But we might still see the one or other smaller improvement over time. Proboably till we get the first standart pulse or plasma rifles

[KnightFandragon]

I can prolly see the first laser weapons coming when some joker tries to come up w/ a way to solve the need for endangering resupply aircraft crew and all the extra weight of ammo as well as solution to running out of ammo period.

[Crni vuk]

future evolution already now







*hey, what about a Terminator mod for Men of War, or a sci fi game with the same focus on complexity and reliability

[KnightFandragon]

Thats where I hope and wait for the Battletech mod to get done.....Battletech is my #1 Fav Genre 2nd is WWII. Nothing is more awesome then a 3 story high robot marauding down the street blasting the living woo-hoo out of anything stupid enough to stand in its way. Also, cant wait for Pirhana games to get hte new Mechwarrior game done....havent heard much on that game lately....*Tear* So, while I am waiting on that Butchering hordes of T34's w/ my King Tiger and its KwK44, sporting Speedwolf's wicked black SS skin will have to do =D After all it is a King Tiger, prolly the only tank that will stand up to the power of a mech