Make the game more "believabale"

[Crni vuk]

Originally Posted by KnightFandragon

... Reducing the power of AT nades adds to realism as AT nades prolly weresnt that good but it kept tanks in their place and made infantry really AWESOME....one thign I like about this game.

They lowered the effectivness of AT grenades somewhat and even if it is frustrating sometimes I am very glad about it (well no one can tell me he is happy when his infantry failed to destroy or just damage that enemy heavy tank ). Thing is even the way how they work now its STILL unrealistic as AT grenades have been usualy ... well almost useless particularly against late war armor.

For the Russian army for example the main AT grenades have been the RPG40 and RPG43 with the RPG40 eventualy penetrating 20mm of armor (the roof of the Tiger 1 had already 40) and the RPG43 with around 75mm of armor since it was a shaped charge while the earlier model was made of just explosives though you would have to be lucky with the throw as the grenade has to hit the armor on a flat angle an to achieve that was already hard enough. Overall most AT grenades were an awkward and difficult weapon to use effectively. To use it, the soldier had to get within throwing range with the enemy armor which alone was difficult already. Despite having a powerful warhead only a skilled user will have really success with it if anything, just like every shaped-charge weapons it is only effective if the striking angle is close to 90 degree and you have to hit hard the target hard enough to detonate the impact fuse, or it would bounce harmlessly off the tank. So even if you throw it one could many times experience situations where the grenade is either bouncing of harmelsly or exploding in some angle that is not very suportive which means that biger armor might not be penetrated. On the other side the "Gebalte Ladung" which is also used in MoW is quite effective even against heavy armor as well when it should not as its not more then a few usual Hd.Gr.43 or Stiel Handgreande 24 conected together which had not much armor pearcing qualities (not even that many shrapnels definetly much less then the British or Russian F1 grenade which had the most shrapnels for any grenade) while the German stielhandgranaten have been considered "conclussion grenades" and usually classed as offensive weapons cause they do not hold that much dangers to the attacker unlike "fragmentation grenades" which can be sometimes even dangerous to the user when they contain many shrapnells which can be lethal up to 50 meters and the effective casualty radius is often enough higher than the distance it can be thrown



Though I am glad that they found a good way of dealing with the AT grenades as they are not always effective (so no anti-tank-wonder weapons anymore) particularly against heavy armor but they are as well not completely useless (where you have to ask your self why its even in the game ...). I wish the rest of the armor penetration would work the same way so you have a "midle ground" particularly with the medium and heavy guns. Many tanks like the Firefly and rather weak British vehicles which have a powerfull gun (Achiles, Archer etc.) would benefit from more vulnerable flanks for the heavy tanks as you dont have to get in suicide range anymore just to score a "succesfull" penetration of the hull and see your shell bounce of doing no damage at all cause its to far away.

[KnightFandragon]

Whats the Gabalte Ledung? Is that the PWM-1? I like those things, they make a rather big boom like AT nades but throw further.

[Korsakov829]

I wonder, since tanks sound so valuable in Assault Squad if the effectiveness of the AT grenade is changed?

[KnightFandragon]

ive watched a few YT vids of AS and tanks seem to be kinda rare unless thats what you specifially save points for. Which is nice _D It will be cool to see the ligheter stuff actually used a little more. The Panzer IV still seems to be junk, saw it a few times in the vids and 1 hit and it died from 57s and stuff. Penetration values set to realistic now? I defintly like the longer ranges in AS as well....the short 2 ft ranges in RTS games bugs me so much

[firearms2k]

Originally Posted by KnightFandragon

The Panzer IV still seems to be junk, saw it a few times in the vids and 1 hit and it died from 57s and stuff.

If this is true, then AS will very much be disappointing(for me). I'm all up for more infantry combat instead of the tank fodder that every round of MoW ends up in, but if they start "Balancing" units to be more "realistic" - then **** that.

There's so many ways around to balancing German vs. Russian(example) units besides taking the Tiger(example) and nerfing it to the point of a T34/85.

[Crni vuk]

Originally Posted by KnightFandragon

Whats the Gabalte Ledung? Is that the PWM-1? I like those things, they make a rather big boom like AT nades but throw further.

The gebalte Ladung was a improvised anti tank weapon by the soldiers which was a usual stick grenade tied together with the head of others.

the PMW 1 was a anti tank grenade developed by the Luftwaffe but its use was pretty difficult as even with the fins to stabilize the flight it would still often tumble when thrown.

Originally Posted by KnightFandragon

ive watched a few YT vids of AS and tanks seem to be kinda rare unless thats what you specifially save points for. Which is nice _D It will be cool to see the ligheter stuff actually used a little more. The Panzer IV still seems to be junk, saw it a few times in the vids and 1 hit and it died from 57s and stuff. Penetration values set to realistic now? I defintly like the longer ranges in AS as well....the short 2 ft ranges in RTS games bugs me so much

Yes, I disslike the 57mm gun as well and how overpowered it is ... particularly when you think how damn rare it was on the soviet side only a couple of T34 ever got them and I think all of them have been loost in battle while it had eventually slightly better penetration compared to the 76mm but it did less damage and the amunition was hard to manufacture and poor of quality. They though seem to be able to penetrate both the Panzer IV and Hetzer even when that is more then questionable ... since the Hetzer had with its 60mm of angled armor (around 55° or something) effectively almost the same protection like the Tiger 1 with its 100mm of armor which had no slope. What made the Hetzer really weak was the very small space inside the vehicle which slowed down the reload time (you will not believe that it was possible to squeze 5 people in it ...), the small traverse of the gun and its very weak side armor of just 20mm ~ the Panther had 40mm.

[firearms2k]

Originally Posted by Crni vuk

you will not believe that it was possible to squeze 5 people in it.

I believe there were only 4 crew members in a Hetzer.

Still remarkable though

[Korsakov829]

Military vehicles are all cramped, I don't know of a single comfortable tank.

[Crni vuk]

Originally Posted by firearms2k

I believe there were only 4 crew members in a Hetzer.

Youre right, only 4 seems like even though when extremly rare that even I can make mistakes
*just joking

Originally Posted by Korsakov829

Military vehicles are all cramped, I don't know of a single comfortable tank.

Depends. Yes when it comes to space they are all small. But in general you could do something to make it more letz say "comfortable" for the crew. So the Russian tank crews which had the luck to use a Sherman send there trough the lend and lease contract have been in general very happy with it. That a Sherman was no Tiger or Panther goes without saying but when just comparing it to the T34 (both versions the 76mm and 85mm) the Sherman was very comfortable, adjustable leaderseats, commanders cupola (that came very late in the T34) and also binocular sights for the driver even! And with later versions amunition in a wet storage to prevent explosion which was never present in the T34. The T34 had a nasty habit of exploding in a huge fireball once it was hit or burning very much to the fatality of the crews which bailed out of the vehicle and had to stay next to it cause of enemy fire. As Russian tanker you really have not been on the best side of things with a T34 or many other tanks that had a pretty crude design. Excelent war machines no doubt easy to use and maintain, but you really had to deal with a lot. In general for example the vehicle was extremly loud, almost twice as much like a Panzer IV which means that you can hear the T34 a lot earlier then the T34 the Panzer IV (or other vehicles) and shooting past 600meters with the T34 76 was hopeless. One of the reasons for the loud sound have been the tracks and their design. As said all very crude processed.

And the same can be said about comparing the Panther and Hetzer for example which offered you at least more space then a Hetzer which was for it self a average tank hunter but it still had a lot of disadvantages. You could always compare the Hetzer to the Jagdpanther or Jagdpanzer IV for example which offered not just more protection but also been overly better designed vehicles which is just natural as their base have been the Panther and Panzer IV while for the Hetzer it was the Panzerkampfwagen 38(t) which was for its time around 1939-41 a quite usefull vehicle but around 44 when the Jagdpanzer 38(t) saw use completely outdated and outclassed even as light vehicle. The design of the Jagdpanzer 38(t) was a good use of the existing resources as changing the whole production to a new vehicle would have cost many time but for 44 the Hetzer was probably to late ~ such a vehicle would have proved to be very usefull in the time between 41 and 43.

[Korsakov829]

A T72 is cramped, it smells, everyone is breathing down each others neck and sometimes the assault rifle jabs you in the side.
I'm sure though its a step up from the T-18. I can't imagine those things.