Game Hurricane is 534 lbs overweight

[JtD]

We're not on the same page here.

L 2026 was equipped with a early production windscreen and armour plating over the fuselage fuel tank. In this configuration it was tested at a flying weight of 6316 lb.

In addition to this, the aircraft was ballasted an extra 434 lb in accordance with an Air Ministry letter, to be tested at overload condition of 6750 lb.

So, no - armoured glass was not fitted on the aircraft. Some sort of fuel tank protection was, but this has nothing to do with the extra 434 lb, as it already was installed.
Question - why do you think 434 lb is meant to simulate armour upgrades? Is that an assumption or do you have more background information?

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

Maybe you'd like to provide some proof for this assertion?

The weight added for the cockpit bullet proof glass and over tank armour is a total of 434 lbs, seems excessive if the armour plating was simply a thin sheet of aluminum. My understanding it was actual steel plate. I will be checking further references.

A number of books on the Spitfire detail the modification to the fuel tank plating; viz 3mm thick alloy, not steel plate, which provided some degree of protection from small calibre bullets and shrapnel:



The weight of the armour plate behind and under the seat and behind the headrest was 73 lbs, so where the figure of 434 lbs comes from I have no idea.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

Maybe you'd like to provide some proof for this assertion?

The weight added for the cockpit bullet proof glass and over tank armour is a total of 434 lbs, seems excessive if the armour plating was simply a thin sheet of aluminum. My understanding it was actual steel plate. I will be checking further references.

The Spitfire I carried a total of 51 kg armor. The said thicker (3.5mm)plating over the fuel top of the fuel tank was just 12.1 kg, the armored glass only 9 kg. Most of weight thus came from the numerous, bulky steel plates, most of which were however not terribly effective as they were rather thin.

109E armor weight was iirc 46 kg, that's essentially the weight of the large 8 mm thick armored bulkhead in the rear fuselage.

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

The Spitfire I carried a total of 51 kg armor. The said thicker (3.5mm)plating over the fuel top of the fuel tank was just 12.1 kg, the armored glass only 9 kg. Most of weight thus came from the numerous, bulky steel plates, most of which were however not terribly effective as they were rather thin.

109E armor weight was iirc 46 kg, that's essentially the weight of the large 8 mm thick armored bulkhead in the rear fuselage.

And where did a weight of 12.1 kg for the light alloy plating come from?

That the 8mm thick 109E "armour" weighed only 46 kg indicates that it was not armour plate, which would have weighed considerably more, but probably a toughened alloy of some kind, or a sandwich of armour and alloy. Then we have the usual assertion of how bad British methods were cf the uber German...

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by NZtyphoon

And where did a weight of 12.1 kg for the light alloy plating come from?

From a detailed report.

That the 8mm thick 109E "armour" weighed only 46 kg indicates that it was not armour plate, which would have weighed considerably more, but probably a toughened alloy of some kind, or a sandwich of armour and alloy.

You are simply wrong.

Then we have the usual assertion of how bad British methods were cf the uber German...

Well the British method was to put relatively low thickness armor plates in a lot of places, which were useful when you were shooted at with non-AP munition or by German bombers. Unfortunately the thickness used on British fighters (4.5 mm back plate, 6.2mm head plate) was only marginally effective when shot at by even 7.92mm AP munition.

[klem]

Originally Posted by NZtyphoon

And where did a weight of 12.1 kg for the light alloy plating come from?

That the 8mm thick 109E "armour" weighed only 46 kg indicates that it was not armour plate, which would have weighed considerably more, but probably a toughened alloy of some kind, or a sandwich of armour and alloy. Then we have the usual assertion of how bad British methods were cf the uber German...

Hmmmm well at the risk of 'switching sides':

8 mm x 0.75m x 1m Carbon Steel weighs 46KG
http://www.ralingroup.co.uk/weights.html
Does that help?

If steel plate behind the Hurricane pilot was said to be 1/4 inch thick. At 2.5 ft x 3 ft thats 75.6lbs and it was said to weigh 73lbs.

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

I also checked the Spitfire IA to see if its weight is off. And yes, it is, by 107 lbs, or 49 kgs. The game Spitfire IA with Rotol prop and 100 octane is 2799 kgs, or 6157 lbs. It should weigh 2750 kgs, or 6050 lbs. You can see the weight listed in this document, which shows the weight of a Spit IA with Rotol prop, bullet proof glass and armour plating:



More details of this test can be seen here:

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/n3171.html

Good work on this Buzzsaw. Note too that the Rotol propeller unit used on N3171 was heavier than the de H unit; the de H 2 speed unit weighed 345 lbs

For comparison tare weights are given here (Spitfire I w/de H unit 4,599lb, no armour or IFF):

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/l1007.html

Spitfire I w/Rotol 4,713 lbs a difference of 174 lbs:

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/n3171.html

With armour plating and IFF equipment fitted the standard de H propeller Spitfire I would have been slightly lighter than the Rotol equipped versions without armour and IFF, not forgetting the conversion to de H CS propeller, which would have added some weight to the propeller unit.

[*Buzzsaw*]

Salute

Please limit the discussion to the Overweight/Underweight issues raised.

JG52_Uther has kindly unlocked the thread at my request after locking it previously.

Please feel free to contribute information on the accurate weights of these aircraft.

In particular, anyone with information on 109E4 weights.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

Salute

Please limit the discussion to the Overweight/Underweight issues raised.

JG52_Uther has kindly unlocked the thread at my request after locking it previously.

Please feel free to contribute information on the accurate weights of these aircraft.

In particular, anyone with information on 109E4 weights.

E-4 = same as E-3 plus armor weight.

Merric writes 40 kg for the amored bulkhead (now that I have checked the source )

The armored headrest weighted 13 kg which we do not have in the game, and if fact, its somewhat uncommon to be seen on BoB era 109E.

In fact I seriously doubt that any of the 109E variants has any kind of armor modelled in CLOD. Because if we would have, rear fuselage shots at the 109E from direct astern should be completely ineffective against the pilot and fuel tank..

[ramstein]

I have no clue what the sheild behind the pilot seat weighs in a hurricane,, but a real P-40 pilot (who is a Flying Tiger) told me the sheild behind the seat weighed 60 lbs. They used to take them out to save 60 lbs, which increased aircraft performance. Every pound saved is precious. As it also had alot to do with balance and placement.