Inaccurate performance data for BOB fighters in COD comparing to RL data

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

There is no resistance to evidence. I just don't call random clippings of documents out of context combined with assumption evidence.

.

I have asked you a couple of times once in the forum and once in a PM to let me know which document you are referring to as being out of context and I would do everything I can to ensure that you get everything I have. I even offered to get you a full copy of the paper you have concerns about

To date you haven't told me which ones you are referring too just that you are getting your own.

What I do ask, is that you stop running down the papers that I have posted until you can prove that they are out of context or in any way misleading.

If they are then I will apologise to one and all and leave this forum for good. However if they are not miseading or out of context then I expect you to apologise for this accusation.
If you cannot support your theory that the RAF only had 16 squadrons of fighters using 100 Octane at any one time then I expect you to withdraw that theory and apologise for wasting everyones time. Is that fair enough?

I repeat that I believe my case to be a strong case not a perfect one, but I have at least supplied a number of documents covering, all aspects of the case. Which is a lot more than can be said for the 16 squadron theory

[Al Schlageter]

Glider and NZt have made good posts so there is nothing to add.

I would still like to know which 16 squadrons were the only squadrons to use 12lb boost, 100 octane fuel. To help with the selection of these 16 squadrons the following are the Spitfire and Hurricane squadrons that participated in the BoB:

Hurricane
No. 1 (Canwpore) Squadron RAF JX (squadron code)
No. 3 Squadron RAF OQ
No. 17 Squadron RAF YB
No. 32 Squadron RAF GZ
No. 43 (China-British) Squadron RAF FT
No. 46 (Uganda) Squadron RAF PO
No. 56 (Punjab) Squadron RAF US
No. 73 Squadron RAF TP
No. 79 (Madras Presidency) Squadron RAF NV
No. 85 Squadron RAF VY
No. 87 (United Provinces) Squadron RAF LK
No. 111 Squadron RAF JU
No. 145 Squadron RAF SO
No. 151 Squadron RAF DZ
No. 213 (Ceylon) Squadron RAF AK
No. 229 Squadron RAF RE
No. 232 Squadron RAF EF
No. 238 Squadron RAF VK
No. 242 (Canadian) Squadron RAF LE
No. 245 (Northern Rhodesia) Squadron RAF DX
No. 249 (Gold Coast) Squadron RAF GN
No. 253 (Hyderabad) Squadron RAF SW
No. 257 (Burma) Squadron RAF DT ALERT
No. 263 (Fellowship of the Bellows) Squadron RAF HE
No. 501 (County of Gloucester) Squadron AuxAF SD
No. 504 (City of Nottingham) Squadron AuxAF TM
No. 601 (County of London) Squadron AuxAF UF
No. 605 (County of Warwick) Squadron AuxAF UP
No. 607 (County of Durham) Squadron AuxAF AF
No. 615 (County of Surrey) Squadron AuxAF KW
No. 1 (401) Squadron RCAF (Canadian) YO
302 (City of Poznan) Squadron (Polish) WX
303 (Warsaw - Kosciuszko) Squadron (Polish) RF
No. 310 (Czechoslovak) Squadron (Czech) NN
No. 312 (Czechoslovak) Squadron (Czech) DU

Spitfire
No. 19 Squadron RAF QV (squadron code)
No. 41 Squadron RAF EB
No. 54 Squadron RAF KL
No. 64 Squadron RAF SH
No. 65 (East India) Squadron RAF YT
No. 66 Squadron RAF LZ
No. 72 (Basutoland) Squadron RAF RN
No. 74 Squadron RAF ZP
No. 92 (East India) Squadron RAF QJ
No. 152 (Hyderabad) Squadron RAF UM
No. 222 (Natal) Squadron RAF ZD
No. 234 (Madras Presidency) Squadron RAF AZ
No. 266 (Rhodesia) Squadron RAF UO
No. 602 (City of Glasgow) Squadron AuxAF LO
No. 603 (City of Edinburgh) Squadron AuxAF XT
No. 609 (West Riding) Squadron AuxAF PR
No. 610 (County of Chester) Squadron AuxAF DW
No. 611 (West Lancashire) Squadron AuxAF FY
No. 616 (South Yorkshire) Squadron AuxAF QJ

[Al Schlageter]

Good post #982 Ace.

I will add that only the fighter bases used by Spitfire and Hurricane squadrons using 12lb boost, 100 octane fuel that are on the CloD map need be considered. It will cut down immensely on the data that has to be collected and sent to 1C. All other bases are irrelevant for the game though not for history.

[NZtyphoon]

Just a word on how British airbases were supplied with aviation fuel: according to the Official War History "Oil" starting in 1938 the British built a network of pipelines which distributed fuel from ports, refineries, (eg; Stanlow), through a series of Air Force Distribution Centres - small, well protected fuel bunkers, to airfields (p.64). The airfields themselves did not store large quantities of fuel;

from The Battle of Britain Then and Now Vol V.:

Debden: Sector Station had fuel storage for 72,000 gallons or 228 tons.(p. 190)
Kenley, Sector Station, had fuel storage for 35,000 gallons or 110 tons (p. 46) - with two to three squadrons operating from a sector station how long would it take to use up the fuel stored on site?

Westhampnett, had storage for 24,000 gallons of aviation fuel, or 76 tons (p. 42):
Many of the smaller airbases did not have fixed fuel storage, relying on petrol bowsers (tanker trucks to Americans).

The unit responsible in 1940 for the distribution of Aviation Spirit and Explosives was 42 Maintenance Group, which was formed in Jan 1939 http://www.rafweb.org/Grp04.htm

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by ACE-OF-ACES

Ah.. my bad

I thought you were refering to one of the bug threads here in this forum.. That link you provided is a much more formal softare issue tracking system.. We use something simular (in house) where I work for the software I write.. With that said.. what section are you posting the 100 octane request in? I assume the 'Feature' section and not the 'Bug' section? Again, sorry for my misunderstanding! The day I saw your post I had just seen a bug list posted in this forum and I ASSumed you were refering to that thread! My bad!

lol, no worries, just oversight. I was worried for a second that you were doing a Kurfurst on me

Well I think there are multiple related problems but the main would be

Bug: Boost cut out does not apply boost power to the spitfire or hurricane and the boost gauge does not read 12lbs. According to the pilots notes it should.......blah blah.....FTH.....blah

Missing Feature: FMB, option to add either 87 or 100 octane fueled RAF aircraft to a mission. The flight models would be different for each type when full power is applied.

[NZtyphoon]

Going waaay back is this observation: (I've added some of the units which reported the use of 100 Octane.)

Originally Posted by TheGrunch

Cross-referencing references to +12lbs boost in combat reports with the dates that the squadron involved were stationed at certain airfields we can see that 100 octane fuel was available for certain at the following airfields from at least the following months:

RAF North Weald (11 Group) in February: 151 Sqn, 56 Sqn
RAF Drem (13 Group) in February: 111Sqn, 602 Sqn,
RAF Rochford (11 Group) in March:
RAF Digby (12 Group) in March: 611 Sqn
RAF Hawkinge (11 Group) in May: 610 Sqn (June)
RAF Hornchurch (11 Group) in May: 54 Sqn. 41 Sqn (July) 603 Sqn (August)
RAF Tangmere (11 Group) in May
RAF Duxford (12 Group) in May:19 Sqn
RAF Gravesend (11 Group) in June
RAF Catterick (12 Group) in June: 41 Sqn (August)
RAF Biggin Hill (11 Group) in July: 72 Sqn, 92 Sqn
RAF Kenley (11 Group) in August: 64 Sqn, 66 Sqn
RAF Northolt (11 Group) in August
RAF Westhampnett (11 Group) in August: 602 Sqn
RAF Middle Wallop (10 Group) in August: 234 Sqn, 609 Sqn
RAF Leconfield (12 Group) in August: 616 Sqn.
RAF Croydon (11 Group) in September: 222 Sqn
RAF Warmwell (10 Group) in September: 152 Sqn

18 Airbases - not Squadrons which have combat reports confirming the use of 100 Octane fuel between Feb - Sept 1940;

20 squadrons preliminary count - er- er - I though someone said only 16 Squadrons used 100 Octane, pending an "eventual change" meaning (say) 10 airbases - er - how do 20 Sqns go into 16? (Feel free to add other squadrons/airbases).

Why has someone not bothered mentioning Blenheims also using 100 Octane while, some time ago, acknowledging that Blenheims used 100 Octane fuel? Has this since been retracted, or just -conveniently - forgotten about?

Originally Posted by Crumpp

The meeting notes you posted seem to confirm that Bomber command was using 100 Octane in the Blenheim's.

More to the point why is it that more than a year later someone is still arguing over the number of Squadrons using 100 octane - apart from wasting time and sheer bloodymindeness?

[Crumpp]

18 Airbases

That does not mean every airplane on the field was using 100 octane.

You have 18 squadrons by that list by sometime in September.

You only have 16 squadrons thru August.....

You have 12 squadrons in July.....

10 Squadrons in June....

9 in May......

5 squadrons in March....

4 Squadrons in February....

Seems a much more realistic deployment schedule for operating the engines at 3 times their design capacity.

[Crumpp]

So you think the Merlin was designed to run at about 400 hp?

If that is what the engine produces at maximum continuous...YES.

Get a Spitfire Mk I POH and read the maximum continuous rating. That is the maximum power the engine is designed to safely and reliability produce.

Mixture control Normal = +4 1/2 lbs at 2600rpm

Why do you think the RAF called +12lbs "a definite overload condition"?

[fruitbat]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

That does not mean every airplane on the field was using 100 octane.

You have 18 squadrons by that list by sometime in September.

You only have 16 squadrons thru August.....

You have 12 squadrons in July.....

10 Squadrons in June....

9 in May......

5 squadrons in March....

4 Squadrons in February....

Seems a much more realistic deployment schedule for operating the engines at 3 times their design capacity.

Speculation on your part, without one shread of evidence, because its what you want to believe

[Crumpp]

Speculation on your part, without one shread of evidence, because its what you want to believe

No, actually I am just taking you guys at your word. He stated he cross referenced the logs with the time period and bases.

I just counted the squadrons by month and dropped the repeats....