Tactics for Cliffs of Dover.

[Ernst]

Most Germans loses were Bomber aircraft badly escorted by fighter lacking of fuel endurance. Obviously, radar helped, British could concentrate their attacks in defenseless germans bombers. But when fighter gone against fighter the fight was very well matched, not the Turkey shot some were saying. It ll be not surprise if many just not come home crash landing in the Channel by no fuel, not destroyed by RAF.

If we consider Africa and Malta were the conditions were much more equal the Luftwaffe had the edge. At Afrika and Malta the 109 performed better than the spitfire. After USAAF and massive long range fighters take the edge.

[Triggaaar]

Originally Posted by Xilon_x

this attak failed because German use only areal force if germany use areal force+navy force+earth force the course of war for my opinon is different.

They'd have lost quicker. Britain had a larger Navy than Germany, biggest in the World I think. Trying to transport troups across the chanel with a fully functional RAF would have been disasterous.

[swiss]

Originally Posted by Xilon_x

if germany use areal force+navy force+earth force the course of war for my opinon is different.

No sh1t, really?
What do you think BoB was about?

(btw, even if they managed to destroy London, which was impossible, they still couldn't land.
Or are you suggesting they should have landed in London?)

[lane]

I highly recommend Stephen Bungay’s
The Most Dangerous Enemy: A History of the Battle of Britain It’s a must have!

Originally Posted by Triggaaar

According to wwiiaircraftperformance.org (and I have no idea how accurate it is, but a few here have pointed to it) the BoB Spits are faster than the 109s and climb at least as well:
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html
on that page the climb rate is shown as about the same for the standard MkI Spit, and I assume the 12lb boost model would be a lot better. Speed wise the standard Spit is slower at many altitudes, but at it's optimal altitude the Spit is faster. The 12lb boost Spit is faster than the 109s at all altitudes.

That page is extremely well sourced. Apparently the +12 boosted Spits and Hurricanes are the only ones relevant to a Battle of Britain sim.

[Triggaaar]

Originally Posted by Ernst

But when fighter gone against fighter the fight was very well matched, not the Turkey shot some were saying.

Yes the fighers were well matched. Pilot stories all say the fighters were well matched. Can you quote where someone said this was a tukey shoot (or words to that effect), because we know that wasn't the case. A lot of the pilot losses are down to the fact that when the RAF bailed over Britain, they weren't captured, and British fighters had 1 pilot in them, vs several airmen in a German bomber. With that in mind though, the RAF shot down more German aircraft because of better tactics. One annoying thing for red pilots in IL2 is the lack of ammunition in Spits, but this wasn't such a problem in real life, because pilots don't tend to shoot down 5 opponents per sortie in real life.

It ll be not surprise if many just not come home crash landing in the Channel by no fuel, not destroyed by RAF.

I'd give them more credit to be able to read their instruments than that (unless they've been shot and had a fuel leak).

[Xilon_x]

yes ROYAL navy is a big power but Germany have the perfect and dangerous u-boat and have air superiority.
attak london whit a surpraise areal attak and german navy landing to london yes is impossible but for me is a 1 canche for invasion of britain because in that moment REGIA MARINA ITALIANA not move? i ask? why?
i think in the sea manica is more more sea mine and the access from the sea is very dangerous.

[Ernst]

Originally Posted by Triggaaar

Yes the fighers were well matched. Pilot stories all say the fighters were well matched. Can you quote where someone said this was a tukey shoot (or words to that effect), because we know that wasn't the case. A lot of the pilot losses are down to the fact that when the RAF bailed over Britain, they weren't captured, and British fighters had 1 pilot in them, vs several airmen in a German bomber. With that in mind though, the RAF shot down more German aircraft because of better tactics. One annoying thing for red pilots in IL2 is the lack of ammunition in Spits, but this wasn't such a problem in real life, because pilots don't tend to shoot down 5 opponents per sortie in real life.

I'd give them more credit to be able to read their instruments than that (unless they've been shot and had a fuel leak).

I give them credit, but manage your aircraft in such hostile enviroment and flying in the endurance limits is not so simple.


The fuel comsuption it is not a very clear and fixed variable, if you need to operate at combat RPM for a longer time maybe you ll not have fuel to RTB. A certain amount could give you 20 minutes or 30 minutes more depending on your engine RPM. In battle bad things happen, even you were not shot (malfunction, lose of orientation, if you fly wrong route for only little time etc). If you are near home, you just land. If you are far from home opsss. And considering luftwaffe fighters were flying in their limits, sometimes things get worse.

[Triggaaar]

Originally Posted by Xilon_x

yes ROYAL navy is a big power but Germany have the perfect and dangerous u-boat and have air superiority.

Germany didn't have air superiority - that was the point of the Battle of Britain. Germany couldn't land troups without being attacked from the air. And while the u-boats were great in the Atlantic, they wouldn't fair as well supporting an invasion force. They'd have to move and give up their position, and they'd be sunk.

attak london whit a surpraise areal attak and german navy landing to london yes is impossible but for me is a 1 canche for invasion of britain

Although Germany made mistakes in the Battle of Britain, they had amazing success in the war as a whole. If they could have successfully invaded Britain, they would have. It would have made it rather tricky for the US to come and join in.

[Abbeville-Boy]

Originally Posted by Ernst

I give them credit, but manage your aircraft in such hostile enviroment and flying in the endurance limits is not so simple.


The fuel comsuption it is not a very clear and fixed variable, if you need to operate at combat RPM for a longer time maybe you ll not have fuel to RTB. A certain amount could give you 20 minutes or 30 minutes more depending on your engine RPM. In battle bad things happen, even you were not shot (malfunction, lose of orientation, if you fly wrong route for only little time etc). If you are near home, you just land. If you are far from home opsss. And considering luftwaffe fighters were flying in their limits, sometimes things get worse.

you have good understandings

[JG52Uther]

I think its in Steinhilpers book that he talks about many 109 pilots coming down in the channel due to running out of fuel,something like 16 or so (guessing,can't quite remember,but it was a lot) in one day,with most of the pilots drowning.
This is another thing,surely the RAF planes should have a heavier fuel load than the LW fighters?
A 109 should be just around the 50% mark when it gets to the combat area.
So RAF boys,what do you do? Carry a full tank and hope you don't meet a 109 with 50% fuel, or take off with 50% and hope you don't run out and have to land before we turn up...
Will make for some strategic flying on a realistic server!