Bomber boys - bbc one

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Dutch

Hmm..... Also interested in Mr. Sternjaeger's opinion of Maj. Gen. Curtis LeMay.

http://www.wired.com/thisdayintech/t...-meetinghouse/

Here's another one.

http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=217

A thing that we often forget nowadays is that the Americans had the same consideration of the Japanese that the Germans had of the Russians: Japanese code of conduct and fierceness didn't do themselves any favour, propaganda did the rest. Japanese were almost not considered human by most.

So whilst Germans might still have kept a sort of human side (all in all they had the same caucasian looks), Japanese were strongly mocked for their different looks. Only who fought against the Japanese learned the hard lesson that the Japanese were far from the clumsy, short sighted skinny wimps of the US propaganda.

Let's not forget that racism was still very strong in the '40s: white German POWs in the States were usually treated better than African American troops.

[fruitbat]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Rommell was an astute tactician, but not a good general: he didn't listen to more experienced colleagues (he deliberately and blatantly dismissed and ignored the suggestions of Italian generals during the North Africa campaign, who had a better understanding of logistics and artillery use), undermining his relationship with his Italian allies, who never thought much of him and didn't manage to coordinate their work efficiently in North Africa.

By the time he named Kesselrig as CinC of the Mediterranean based German Army it was too late, and never managed to efficiently coordinate the armed forces with the Allies.

So he lost that, he then screwed up big time in Northern France as you all know..

In addition to his stubbornness and arrogance, he deliberately didn't obey certain orders he received, and last but not least he tried to murder his leader.

So no, he wasn't a good general. An astute tactician as I said, a socialite, and a good man that understood that Nazism and Hitler were the real enemy, but not what you would normally define a good general.

Thanks Stern, thats just given me a good chuckle before turning in.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by fruitbat

Thanks Stern, thats just given me a good chuckle before turning in.

I don't understand where the humorous part is?

[ATAG_Dutch]

Fine.

But was General Curtis LeMay a 'War Criminal' or was it his leaders Rooseveldt/Trueman, who sanctioned these actions? - As it was Churchill as Head of the War Cabinet, in consultation with the Air Ministry who defined the policy that Harris (as a good 'General') carried out to the best of his abilities?
It was only post Dresden that Churchill began to distance himself politically from the Area Bombing policy, in fear of his post war political reputation. So who was the 'War Criminal'? Churchill? You might as well say then that all the leaders of the victorious nations were 'war criminals'.

As (let's be honest), the only 'precision bombing' carried out by the USAAF in Europe was conducted by the lead bomber in the Group, as everyone else toggled the tit when the leader's Norden bombsight was on target and he dropped his bombs. They dropped when he did. They didn't queue up in single file. So the American daylight campaign was almost as 'indiscriminate' as was the night bombing. Or is the distinction a question of stated intent rather than actual result?

Iron free fall bombs dropped from 30,000ft in a close formation of however many B-17s is 'precision bombing'? The difference was in intent/policy and not so much in results. And before you jump on the policy argument, what was, was. In a form of warfare never attempted on this scale. We now know different, but they didn't then. Applying the label 'War Criminal' to any of the Allied leaders in the War against Nazism is just puerile.

In the war against Japan, you may have a point, because by then, they'd realised that 'precision bombing' - wasn't, and those B-29 raids were designed to take out the Japanese cities (As was the raid on Coventry in November 1940 by the way), as were the A-bombs. 'Surrender, or face total annihilation.'
And you're correct, racial prejudice was almost an unwritten policy in that case. Not an accusation that can easily be aimed at the British, as our Monarchy are steeped in Germanic heredity, as are a great deal of our genetics. It's one of the reasons Hitler didn't want war with the British, because of his racially based idiocy.

So why do we keep hearing about 'Harris the War Criminal', when Leaders and Generals of all nations were guilty of the same indifference? I'm sick and tired of repeating myself on this Harris issue, but again, the man did nothing which was not sanctioned by Churchill and the War Cabinet. The Dresden raid itself is purported to have been carried out at the request of Stalin to Churchill, Churchill to Cabinet, Cabinet to Air Ministry, Air Ministry to Harris.. It's simply that no-one has the nerve to level that accusation against one of the greatest wartime leaders the world has seen. If not The Greatest. And if they did, they'd have to level the same accusations at all of the Allied Leaders. Rooseveldt, Trueman, Churchill and yep, 'Good Old Joe'. That's 'Uncle Joe' to our transatlantic cousins.

So Harris was, and remains, simply a scapegoat. Consequently a 'Bandwagon' has been generated, which all too many people are willing to jump on, and which drags the rest of Bomber Command down with it.

So, again, was Curtis LeMay a 'War Criminal'? Did the B-29 aircrew receive a Campaign Medal?

[Sternjaeger II]

You are omitting one pivotal point: the area bombing was Harris' idea, not Churchill's. Yes,he received pressure from Stalin, and realised that with the American intervention he was going to lose the grip on the ETO,so something needed to be done,but according to Churchill's memoirs,he was always reluctant about the de-housing, exactly because he saw the effects of the Blitz and because by the time they did it the war was virtually over,and they would have had to deal with the aftermath.

Harris is guilty for his lack of vision and what I think is his personal revenge and will to be remembered in history,but the toll to pay for his vanity was u reasonably high.

LeMay was way more ruthless than Harris,he was a proper cowboy,flying lead formation and imposing a strict discipline among his air force. He himself reckoned that if the Japanese caught him they would have tried and executed him for war crimes,so by his own admission he was well aware of what he was doing. He hated his enemies.

Once again,I don't wanna judge the men, they took tough decisions in difficult times, I'm only saying that celebrating them is really out of place.

[ATAG_Dutch]

So, was Curtis LeMay a 'War Criminal', as you accuse Harris of being, or not?

'realised that with the American intervention he was going to lose the grip on the ETO' - what? Churchill campaigned for American involvement from the word go. Stupid comment.

'according to Churchill's memoirs,he was always reluctant about the de-housing' - I know, I have the books (you know, those I've never looked at), which he wrote after the war.

'Harris is guilty for what I think is his personal revenge' - Personal revenge for what exactly? He was quite happy farming in Africa.

'I'm only saying that celebrating them is really out of place.' - let me guess, because they helped win the war against Nazism?

'if the Japanese caught him they would have tried and executed him for war crimes' - he had good evidence and good cause. The Doolittle Raiders suffered that exact fate in '42. Didn't take a genius to work that out.

So, was Curtis LeMay a 'War Criminal', as you accuse Harris of being, or not?





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[WTE_Galway]

Originally Posted by robtek

There is no memorial for the Luftwaffe, though.

What ??????

Yes there is .... in Bavaria not far from Munich ...

http://www.ww2museums.com/article/15...-Luftwaffe.htm

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Dutch

Fine.

But was General Curtis LeMay a 'War Criminal' or was it his leaders Rooseveldt/Trueman, who sanctioned these actions? - As it was Churchill as Head of the War Cabinet, in consultation with the Air Ministry who defined the policy that Harris (as a good 'General') carried out to the best of his abilities?
It was only post Dresden that Churchill began to distance himself politically from the Area Bombing policy, in fear of his post war political reputation. So who was the 'War Criminal'? Churchill? You might as well say then that all the leaders of the victorious nations were 'war criminals'.

Well, the "just followed orders" argument was trashed at Nuremberg. The ultimate question these days is...was that trial a standart setting process applayable to all, or mere winners justice?

Or let's say it this way. Before all this bomber combat honoring, this trial was seen as valid and trendsetting in Germany. Since this debate about honoring those bomber pilots came up and especially since the statue for Bomber Harris was errected, it is more and more seen as mere winners trial, where nationalism and hero worshipping trumps general moral values, completly in line with the soviet case back then.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Dutch

So, was Curtis LeMay a 'War Criminal', as you accuse Harris of being, or not?

'realised that with the American intervention he was going to lose the grip on the ETO' - what? Churchill campaigned for American involvement from the word go. Stupid comment.

'according to Churchill's memoirs,he was always reluctant about the de-housing' - I know, I have the books (you know, those I've never looked at), which he wrote after the war.

'Harris is guilty for what I think is his personal revenge' - Personal revenge for what exactly? He was quite happy farming in Africa.

'I'm only saying that celebrating them is really out of place.' - let me guess, because they helped win the war against Nazism?

'if the Japanese caught him they would have tried and executed him for war crimes' - he had good evidence and good cause. The Doolittle Raiders suffered that exact fate in '42. Didn't take a genius to work that out.

So, was Curtis LeMay a 'War Criminal', as you accuse Harris of being, or not?





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I think he was, but I have no intention of carrying on a conversation with you if you don't change your offensive tone. I'm sure you can voice your opinion without being offensive to your interlocutor.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Well, the "just followed orders" argument was trashed at Nuremberg. The ultimate question these days is...was that trial a standart setting process applayable to all, or mere winners justice?

Or let's say it this way. Before all this bomber combat honoring, this trial was seen as valid and trendsetting in Germany. Since this debate about honoring those bomber pilots came up and especially since the statue for Bomber Harris was errected, it is more and more seen as mere winners trial, where nationalism and hero worshipping trumps general moral values, completly in line with the soviet case back then.

There was an interesting debate on how this idea is too scary or hard to compute for some people, the formula "we're the good guys, so we're allowed pretty much anything for the sake of our good cause" seemed to apply to a lot of unjustifiable stuff, with people failing to comprehend or remember than in their own eyes, the Nazis were the good guys and if they won it would have been their measure of good and bad, not ours.