I would like one question,why is not included in this part of the E4 Messer?

[fruitbat]

my point is simple.

surely having a plane that fought in much larger numbers (the E1) in the Battle of Britain is more important than other sub types (E4N) which fought in much lesser numbers, if you want an as accurate as possible BoB (although having all the variants would be nice).

yes/no?

[addman]

There are more than 1 version of the Bf109E? LOL! All look the same to me!

[Matt255]

Originally Posted by fruitbat

like the E1 you mean.

Exactly.

Now of course, they could keep the same cockpit (would be wrong), cut the barrels of the cannons and say those are machineguns (would be wrong too) and then pretend it's a E-1.

I don't think people would like that, even those that want the E-1 in CloD.

Its weird how the usual lufty whiners don't seem to be concerned about that, yet they are concerned about which type of 20mm cannon they get (and upset it's not the better of the two).

Maybe they are concerned that they won't get the more common, historical variant in a realistic flightsim.

Also because the E-3 is so similar to the E-4 and the E-4 was more common, it is a bit surprising, that the developers decided to only model the E-3 instead of the E-4.


But whatever, i'm still hoping for E-1, E-3 and E-4 (and E-7, but then that's a bit too unlikely).

[fruitbat]

As i said earlier in the thread, an E1 and an E4 makes by far the most sense to me.....

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by TUSA/TX-Gunslinger

And your sources? Please list. I'd like to know more.

Everything I have access to shows that across the extent of deployed Geshwader, both early in BoB and late in Bob E-1's - were minority - only assigned to some Enlisted pilots. Galland was in JG26 not 2.

I think also that Galland, Wick, Balthasar and other 'Kannon' mainly had E-4/N's. Look at the Octane rating on their aircraft in profiles. The issues is a bit confused by E-1's/E-3's with E-4 canopy and E-3's which had ben upgraded to E-4 standard.

BTW, my main JG26 source "JG26 Top Guns of the Luftwaffe - Donald Caldwell".

S!

Gunny

Dang, yes JG26. This is from Stienhilpers book, he was in the BoB under Galland and said that they had few decent types, and those they had 'the Spaniards' got them. Steinhilper had an E-1 I recall.

I have also read Gallands "The First and the Last", but he barely mentions equipment apart from numbers produced, and spends the book complaining about how they lost and what he wanted to do.

[fruitbat]

Hooton in Eagle in Flames gives the percentage losses of 109s by subtype:

July
E1 - 44%
E3 - 30%
E4 - 20%

August
E1 - 40%
E3 - 8%
E4 - 52%

September
E1 - 38%
E3 - 1%
E4 - 61%

October
E1 - 36%
E3 - 2%
E4 - 62%

and from Kurfust, over at ubi a while ago,

"I have some actual numbers. On 31 August 1940, fighter units (excluding JG 77) reported 375 E-1s, 125 E-3s, 339 E-4s and 32 E-7s on strength, indicating that most of the E-3s had been already converted to E-4 standard. JG 77 had around 100-125 aircraft with it, but for the rest of the units, its 75% cannon E-3/4/7, the rest are all MG E-1s. The E-1 and E-3 were produced parallel and in about equal numbers from the end of 1938, but by mid-1940, the production of the E-1 stopped, replaced by the E-4 and then the E-7."

and

In Ulrich Steinhilper's book 'Spitfire on My Tail', he relates quite clearly that they, JG52 didn't get there first cannon armed 109's until mid september , and then only 2, which were hand me downs from another unit. Rest of the unit bar these 2 planes was still in E1's.

Its pretty clear that the E1 and E4 were the most common variants by far and that around SEPTEMBER sometime, the E4 became more prevalent than the E1, which had been the most common type until then, but even it October a third of the losses were still E1's.

which makes the E3 choice mystifying to me.

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by TUSA/TX-Gunslinger

I only used the term E4 canopy for convieniance sake.

Any idea of a better term?

The RAF called them "squareheads"

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Banks

IMHO the consistent wing type letter system was "applied" late war or even post war.

When the Spitfire I came into service there was only one wing type, hence there was no letter for it. In 1940 the letter "A" and "B" were added to distinguish between the machine gun armed and the canon armed version.
Spitfire II and V used the same system, "A" meaning machine gun armed, "B" canon armed. Then there was introduced the "universal wing" and machines with it were given the "C" letter.
Sounds like the wing type letter system, but then the Spitfire IX with Merlin 60, 61, 63 came in service, and the wing type system wasn't used initially! They all had the "universal wing" but they were simply called Spitfire IX without the "C" letter. When the Spitfire IX with Merlin 66 was introduced they were given the name Spitfire IXB - simply to distinguish between the different engines. Obviously not the wing type letter system.

After this the wing type letter system must have been "applied" retroactively to all marks.

The 'universal wing' was the 'c' wing, ie it was able to fit cannon or mg's or both. The naming convention was probably thought up afterwards as soon as they had 2 wing types and needed to tell the difference.
The different engine types were designated by letter as an indication of the blower fitted, since all of these used the universal wing then it didn't matter, but it was a 'c' wing anyway. I've never heard of 'B' being used, that's very strange, LF and HF were used.

Now I have to look it up in my massive definitive Spitfire book........

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by fruitbat

In Ulrich Steinhilper's book 'Spitfire on My Tail', he relates quite clearly that they, JG52 didn't get there first cannon armed 109's until mid september , and then only 2, which were hand me downs from another unit. Rest of the unit bar these 2 planes was still in E1's.

Its pretty clear that the E1 and E4 were the most common variants by far and that around SEPTEMBER sometime, the E4 became more prevalent than the E1, which had been the most common type until then, but even it October a third of the losses were still E1's.

which makes the E3 choice mystifying to me.

Yes, this is the reference I was talking about. He was always complaining that they had old types and the only new ones went to Galland. He did get an upgrade towards the end if I remember.

[fruitbat]

Originally Posted by Osprey

Yes, this is the reference I was talking about. He was always complaining that they had old types and the only new ones went to Galland. He did get an upgrade towards the end if I remember.

Yep, plane he was shot down in was a cannon armed emil (he was one of the lucky 2 to get one)

I've been to see it, it's now on display at the museum at Hawkinge, after it was dug up in the 70's about 5 mile from where i live.