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#63
06-26-2009, 11:27 PM
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DGDobrev: I disagree, a mage is good at using non attacking spells. It's easy to use attack magic so I tried and felt that in most fights it's quite inefficient in comparison with fights organized around non attacking spells. For example, against long range think target, against dragons think traps, against non long range think traps, tank with extreme defense, mass haste, buffer, slow and weaken. A mage is just better to do that than a warrior. For sure attacking power is important but defense is important too for any class, that's why Archmage is that good. But with better spell support mage is quite better to take care of defense level.
Again here some points useful for such spells and a warrior won't have:
Ok a warrior that hit quite stronger can be quite efficient in most of similar tactics but for a mage attacking spells are very often less efficient anyway and support these tactics better for the reason I listed above. 
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#64
06-26-2009, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Lake fairies are great but does magic attack and are quite weaker against troops with magic protection. You could balance better your army, for example you could use Knights as an option in your reserve. But there are many other possibilities, the point is to have at leas one strong attack troop that does physical damages.
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#65
06-27-2009, 12:23 AM
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Traps work against dragons one or two times, depending on your troop setup, unless you replay your battle like 5-6 times with different strats and see exactly where to put them in several turns in the proper cell the dragon occupies, because, let's face it - a trap itself doesn't do much damage. Besides, you are aware of the various resistances the dragons have.
Target+stoneskin is nice, but against a big army of 4-5 lvl units, even a strong tank will feel the big bang on his back and may die - afterwards the rest of your army will be minced meat in a few turns. I do agree that a lot of debuffs will most certainly compensate for the lack of numbers, but you need to pump them like crazy and you still need to play with as many leadership items as you can get and leadership upgrades from lvl 2 in order to get as much units as possible. As for the bullets you put up: Higher int make last non attacking spells longer and that is a substantial plus a warrior won't have. > the warrior compensates with numbers Higher Magic level 1 and 2 provides you two spells in one round and that's too is a huge plus a warrior won't have. > the warrior compensates that with high initiative, a lot of rage, which means 1 buffer spell + 1 high-level spirit ability every turn. That pretty much compensates for higher magic. With spells that last shorter and and no double spells boost a warrior cannot support as well some tactics with Target use during all the fight. > Target isn't paramount. If you find your tank being busted by numerous 1-4 lvl units and he dies before you can wear the enemy down enough to start the big ressing, you've pretty much lost the battle. Lvl 5 units will attack your weaker stacks straight away. Teleport can be huge when well used and is often a waste for a warrior that has better to do, not for a mage. > I totally agree, but once again strength in numbers + spirit abilities can compensate for that. Glot's armor works like the trap ability - it makes the enemy lose an attack. Ice thorns can slow enemy advancement. Soul drain can reduce an enemy stack way more than any mage spell. Time back saves you quite a bunch of resurrecting. AND you can alternate between those in every turn, which acts like a spellbook. With mage I use less long range and more close range and close range hit much harder. With mass haste you provide your troops better initiative and very good mobility allowing easily to concentrate attacks on one troop that counter attack only once. > The warrior does the same. Just Mass haste and you're ready to go. Against fast dragons, double traps is quite better than one trap, and again double trap at second round can be sometimes quite good. > Against fast (like the ones in the labyrinth and in the end game) dragons 1 trap + glot's armor does the same. The rest that works is Knights, Archdemons and Demons - good fire resistance and circle attack or furious trait. A mage is also better to use Cursed Ghost because of his attacking spells to use in case of lost control. And Cursed Ghost can be a huge plus in many fights, a plus a warrior can't use as well. > Undead make most of your other troops lose morale. A troop with high morale gets +40% attack and defense and +30% crit chance (and a warrior can easily afford going that far down the paladin tree and get the morale upgrades). Top that with a lot of atk and def attributes the warrior gets through items... Now that can easily outweigh most of the things a mage can do. I don't want to sound biased or something, but in so many play-throughs of KBTL and KBAP, I can't shake the feeling that this game is just made for a warrior. 1 buff/debuff spell + 1 high level spirit ability every turn usually works a lot better than 2 buff/debuff spells + 1 low level spirit ability (since the mage can't afford the high level ones). I tried to analyze and 2 armageddons + 1 decent level black hole were worth about 1800 damage at most and that's the best a mage can show for. The next thing is that a warrior has over 12k leadership more than a mage for every stack as well as 12+ points in the atk/def attributes. That strength in numbers can make even the last battle a matter of "who pulls out the bigger gun" (or the bigger army in our case). As a warrior, an army of Knights, Archdemons, Demons, Horsemen (all of those have fire resist and good stats) and a random unit of your liking (EDIT: Come to think of it, a good last unit will be the cerberus - 3 pronged attack and 50% fire resist) can beat the crap out of the dragons there. I can say that for a fact because I managed to overpower that nasty Dragon Haas even with the paladin on impossible. As a warrior with some more units, I would have had even easier time. heck... maybe this is why I like the Paladin so much. It's probably the most challenging and most fun char to play - no higher magic, no huge amounts of rage. Only the careful planning, the good tactics and the cunning will win the day.
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Last edited by DGDobrev; 06-27-2009 at 12:41 AM.
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#66
06-27-2009, 06:54 AM
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The point isn't to compare to warrior but to mage with attack spell use. You should look at it in this way. It' not because a warrior will perform better that a mage with attack spells will perform better.
About some of the points you bring, and only from a KBTL point of view:
And I agree that warrior seems better but not that this imply that mage is better by using attack spells in imposible mode. EDIT: There's also an important disadvantage to focus on attack spells in impossible mode with a mage. That means that you'll focus on magic order or/and magic chaos level 3 first when mage distortion level 3 asap is a huge advantage. In my current game I even get it before level 2 for chaos and order. Last edited by Vilk; 06-27-2009 at 07:21 AM.
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#67
06-27-2009, 07:37 AM
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I apologize for the misunderstanding then. I thought we're still on the topic of why using a mage for something that isn't for him.
You are correct in the pointers you give out in that case. However, the 12k difference in leadership is precise. The most leadership I've seen on a mage is about 19k (I got up to 18k something with a lot of leadership items). The most leadership I've seen on a warrior is more than 30k (I've had close to 31 once with a ton of + leadership items). You are correct that Glot's armor isn't exactly the same, because even if it does fully protect the first unit from the attack of a dragon, for example (which takes out all movement points), it doesn't protect the second unit in the line of fire, provided there is one. Still, most of the dragons will close up on your units in just 1 turn, so even if you force them to lose it, with lower army strength it will be somewhat hard to drop that dragon down in just 1 turn. I do not argue that it's a good tactic though. I've used it quite a bunch of times myself. The is one trait I do not like about the cursed ghosts. They sometimes tend to get out of control when they hit too hard, which is nasty and can cut through your own lines in record time 
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#68
06-27-2009, 05:42 PM
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DGDobrev: Yes that's about it, that non attacking spells are for mage too, not a mage vs warrior comparison.
For traps my comment about spending movements points wasn't against dragon. For your comment about dragon second round I don't fully agree it's more complex than that. red dragon will almost always try use their special attack at second round if they didn't in first. And they'll almost always target for the special attack hurting the most stacks and you can have a good predict about that. The same goes for Black dragon but it's more difficult to predict where the special attack will end. For Green dragon they'll also try use their special attack in order to hurt most of your units. If they have used their special attack red dragon will most often if not always attack in order to hurt two stacks with their normal attack that has a range of 2. All of that mechanism offer plenty possibility to use traps against dragons even after first round. Yes that's quite complicate but again magic attack against them will be very weak approach. Drop down a stack of dragon stack in one turn is difficult for a warrior too and with attack spell it's even harder and more a waste of mana. Yes it's useless to try protect a unit for the reason you describe that's why using traps and tempt dragons to do so move can be more efficient than any magic attack. But I clearly agree that there's an unpleasant part of random, that this won't do all the job and that a warrior will do better. I compared with Calenda save right before freeing king dwarf son and I had almost same Leadership but quite more mana, much more int and Calinda warrior had much more attack. That's quite far from the 15k leadership you mention. In records included with the game quote the bast mage has 22k, that's quite more than the 18k you mention. Check crepuscule mage record in 7 days, his mage has 23k. The difference is more about attack at price of mana and int and attack too increase damages. That's right about cursed ghost you can use them blindly and then they can be a curse as you describe but there are many other way to use them. A typical one is target when it's a good choice and keep them in back line and after stack lower enough your cursed ghost go in contact to restore deads. But there are many other trick including using Peacefulness that decrease their attack and increase they HP making them much mroe easy to manage or taking care to lower their stack before end of turn.
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