109 prop pitch (rpm) and the supercharger

[Crumpp]

Regarding the gain of airspeed at altitude by overevving the engine and "boosting" the supercharger this way, the F-1/F-2 Kennblatt gives some hint. Blatt 6 says that by increasing RPM to 2800 over the normal maximum of 2600 yields 10 to 15 kph increase in speed at the rated altitude.

Exactly....

As the speed increases, they will have to coarsen pitch to maintain rpm.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Exactly....

As the speed increases, they will have to coarsen pitch to maintain rpm.

So you're saying (again!) that they were constantly changing the rpm to maintain rpm?

On a 109, if you touched the rpm lever either way (up or down), the rpm changed. Simple as that.

You didn't have to 'reaquire' rpm in level flight after you accelerated (e.g. by overreving the engine for a short while). It was where you set it and it didn't go anywhere unless you touched it again. The comparsion with the CSP is not entirely right as the propeller blades won't adjust themselves. You adjust them by moving that Drehzahl lever. So after you accelerate, you need to coarsen up the propeller pitch, that much is correct, but your rpm will drop and stay where they are after you let the lever go. You start slowing down again after a while because of the low rpm / supercharger action (you can go all the way down to coarse for good speed in game) at which point you go to finer pitch again (fiddling with the rpm that is, not mainaining it) to accelerate a bit and get a bit of a boost from the supercharger again. Rinse and repeat.

Maintaining rpm = I am flying at 6km altitude and I don't touch the rpm lever.

It's interesting to see how you're trying to twist everything to prove that you've been actually right. I don't mind you doing that, it's actually quite funny.

[kohmelo]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Exactly....

As the speed increases, they will have to coarsen pitch to maintain rpm.

So like with car going up hill with 5th gear you can not sustain you speed it is declining down and you change to 4th gear you could use that gear to sustain efficient speed or you can accerate but you can not sustain the accelerated speed because of the strain to the engine and cooling. So you change back to 5th gear where your speed starts to decline but the straing is not as big at the point where drag and inertia start to slow you enormously (as with propeller driving engine) you change back to 4th gear. (manual or auto transmission technically the same --> except auto forces to change to bigger gear)

--> Same with automatic variable transmission would be like with autoprop in bf109 you are pushing at the theorethical best efficient gear ratio for your throttle setting but with variable transmission you cannot get that small boost when you need it of rpm.

[David198502]

the problem is, that i think in game overreving the engine does nothing in regards of speed, but only affects the temperatures..

[kohmelo]

Originally Posted by David198502

the problem is, that i think in game overreving the engine does nothing in regards of speed, but only affects the temperatures..

Yes, yes. but i really think that Crumpp has a point in this thing.

as with car and transmission example where you did'nt have the perfect gear ratio. Its hard to have perfect pitch with Bf109

As with manual prop pitch when you change the angle of attack to most efficient at that point, plane speed will change because of this and angle is not efficient anymore. Meaning you need to suffle pitch to opposite way to get more efficient pitch and again because of this change plane speed changes and the angle is not the best anymore. You would think that after while suffling pitch forward and backwards you would hit the sweet spot, but because pitch controller changes engine RPM also that means that engine power output changes as you change you pitch, technically you got more boost from the engine before you coarsened the pitch but if you had'nt coarsened the pitch, you would have started to lose efficiency because you have too much RPM. This could make them jiggle the proppitch and as with the rookie pilot that was falling behind he just could not keep the engine at the sweet area and was falling over from there.

---> BTW you can hear pitch change of the planes when you change pitch. I noticed it with Hurricane 2 pitch version in game.

Edit: My head starts to hurt thinking this prop pitch thing.

[JtD]

Originally Posted by David198502

the problem is, that i think in game overreving the engine does nothing in regards of speed, but only affects the temperatures..

Have you tried this at high altitude? Below full throttle altitude, there's little use in increasing rpm above the normal limit, but at high altitude, it should make a difference. And maybe once at high rpm, change back to the pitch you were originally using and see what speed you're getting to. If it's faster than your original speed, Steinhilpers technique is working in game.

(No time to check on my own.)

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by Robo.

So you're saying (again!) that they were constantly changing the rpm to maintain rpm?

You noticed that too?

Talk about trying to have your cake and eat it too! Or put another way, he is just not able to admit he made a mistake!

Simple fact is the 109 pilot accounts clearly show that they were not trying to 'maintain' the RPMs..

They purposely changed the pitch (flatten) to allow the RPM to increase (rev up), even exceed the recommended RPM limit..

Which in turn allowed the supercharger to rev up!

Than the pilot would change the pitch back (course) to convert the excess RPM into a boost in speed and/or climb as the RPM decreased..

This process was not done once, but done over and over, back to back..

Which is what the 109 pilot noted accounted for that 'wa-wa' sound.

The analogy of the manual transmission clutch fits well here!

Back when I raced dirt bikes we called it 'clutch revving'..

In this analogy, the clutch pressure plate is the prop.. and the flywheel is the air, and the clutch lever is the prop pitch adjustment.. As in pulling in or releasing the clutch lever is analogous to adjusting the prop pitch from flat to course..

The way it worked was you would pull in the clutch to let the engine 'rev up'.. Than release the clutch to convert that revved up energy into a boost in speed or torque..

Here too we did this more than once, not all the time mind you, but when ever you needed a little boost..

Notably, this process also produced a 'wa-wa' sound..

[camber]

Crumpp as others have stated, Steinhilper is clearly not complaining that rookies fell behind because of their inability to manually duplicate a CSP (i.e. continuously changing their variable prop pitch for a constant optimal rpm).

From his account he believed that he could only get optimal performance from pulsing the rpm, i.e duplicating a CSP with the rpm control being moved back and forth. This seems a little odd, and we must consider that it wasn't actually true. Perhaps if the rookie pilot managed to manually control his rpm at an optimum value like a CSP, he could have overtaken Steinhilper busily pulsing his rpms back and forth.

It is hard to state a good technical reason why the pulsing would have helped. Steinhilper believed that the thrust from the rpm boost could only occur if rpm was dropped again, implying that the extra rpm was high enough to not increase thrust. Perhaps 109 pilots decided it was OK to exceed rpm limits if they only did pulses above the limit, they achieved some extra thrust and speed this way but mistook the reason. Or perhaps a quirk of 109 engine/supercharger/prop design did allow a small performance increment doing this over maintaining rpm at a constant optimal value.

Your explanation of CSP function are correct but not relevant to what Steinhilper described.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by camber

Crumpp as others have stated, Steinhilper is clearly not complaining that rookies fell behind because of their inability to manually duplicate a CSP (i.e. continuously changing their variable prop pitch for a constant optimal rpm).

Yes but mind you this only applies at very high altitudes. Fiddling with the rpm, as he describes it, was because of the supercharger design and function, not because of trying to mimic the CSP. Apparently this practice made a difference in average speed up there.

The chap falling behind on the other hand, that was while they were climbing below fth. He was simple a rookie pilot fresh from the training and due to the lack of experience he could not use the manual rpm lever at all and was struggling to keep up. After he got an order to turn back to France he got the navigation wrong, too, and was heading straight to the UK. At this point Steinhilper left the formation and herded him back to the correct heading.

The two 'rpm quotes' are totally unrelated.

Originally Posted by camber

From his account he believed that he could only get optimal performance from pulsing the rpm, i.e duplicating a CSP with the rpm control being moved back and forth. This seems a little odd, and we must consider that it wasn't actually true. Perhaps if the rookie pilot managed to manually control his rpm at an optimum value like a CSP, he could have overtaken Steinhilper busily pulsing his rpms back and forth.

See explanation above - pulsating the rpm is only applicable at high altitudes way above the FTH.

He got shot at and baled out because he was using his older 109 that was not in use for a while, there was some condensed water in the propellel hub and that water froze up in the altitude so he could not change the prop pitch and overreved his engine quite badly.

Originally Posted by camber

It is hard to state a good technical reason why the pulsing would have helped. Steinhilper believed that the thrust from the rpm boost could only occur if rpm was dropped again, implying that the extra rpm was high enough to not increase thrust.

Good technical reason was the supercharger function at that alt and rpm, just as you said below.

Originally Posted by camber

Perhaps 109 pilots decided it was OK to exceed rpm limits if they only did pulses above the limit, they achieved some extra thrust and speed this way but mistook the reason. Or perhaps a quirk of 109 engine/supercharger/prop design did allow a small performance increment doing this over maintaining rpm at a constant optimal value.

Yes they decided so, because it obviously worked, they knew why it was working that way, even Steinhilper explains that in the book. Overreving the engine at altitudes above FTH was actually approved and recommended by LW authorities shortly after the BoB. There is no doubt the pilots knew what they were doing, at least in my opinion... Again this does not apply for flying below the FTH.

[David198502]

Originally Posted by JtD

Have you tried this at high altitude? Below full throttle altitude, there's little use in increasing rpm above the normal limit, but at high altitude, it should make a difference. And maybe once at high rpm, change back to the pitch you were originally using and see what speed you're getting to. If it's faster than your original speed, Steinhilpers technique is working in game.

(No time to check on my own.)

yes we have tried it as a squad with different rpms at above 5000meters.
the outcome was, that there is no difference in speed(at least not that anyone could recognize a difference), although the ata rises with higher rpm that high.the only difference was, that those with higher rpm overheated their engines much quicker.