Sure hope Oleg gets with the program

[nearmiss]

Sure hope Oleg gets with the program and gets his BOB out soon.

We are hearing bad stuff in the states about Russia making threats about US defensive missiles in Poland. The news indicates it is spurred on by a new self-reliance from the new Russian oil wealth. Threats do not build trust between countries or among people.

As an American, the IL2 was a real eye-opener for me. I developed an empathy and understanding about the Russian people and Russia I never had before. I never Knew anything about the Russian war with Germany. It's just not discussed in the US, nor ever was. There was never interest in anything Soviet, principally because of Stalin and the cold war.

Some of the great Russian heros, i.e., Pokriskinin became heros to guys like me. I've bought many books about the Russan air war all from participating with the rest of the world of combat flight simmers with the IL2. Honestly, I look on Russian heros... as heros.

I think most Americans no longer look at Russia as "the enemy". It has taken so many years for these sentiments to be realized in America, it will be a darned shame for anti-Russian sentiment to develop again.

There was a nice guy visiting on dad's day at my son's school. He had a son in the school... This fellow spoke English fairly well and was from Ukraine. There was also a grandfather who was very cordial to this fellow as well... The grandfather had immigrated to America from Ukraine 45 years ago.

It was a very pleasant exchange and I can tell you there was no ill-will or anti-Soviet feelings between us. This is good, and guys like Oleg have done a alot to make relations between Russia and alot of other countries better... with a game.

IMO, I want to be friends with Russia and sure don't want to start the cold war over.

In any case, I hope Oleg gets the BOB done before the "#$#@ hits the fan"

[Crop-Duster]

How would you feel if Russia put defensive missiles in Canada?

"I never Knew anything about the Russian war with Germany. It's just not discussed in the US, nor ever was."

There lies the problem^

[JG52Uther]

Originally Posted by Crop-Duster

How would you feel if Russia put defensive missiles in Canada?

"I never Knew anything about the Russian war with Germany. It's just not discussed in the US, nor ever was."

There lies the problem^

Great post!
Why are American missiles in Poland anyway? Just what are they defending?

[bomath]

Originally Posted by JG52Uther

[...] Why are American missiles in Poland anyway? Just what are they defending?

Officialy, NATO's borders. Really, they're just testing if the bear is still awake, same as the talk about Ukraina added to NATO.

[Crop-Duster]

Originally Posted by JG52Uther

Great post!
Why are American missiles in Poland anyway? Just what are they defending?

You have not heard?

They would be defending Europe even though Europe has not asked to be defended.

[Brain32]

Originally Posted by Crop-Duster

You have not heard?

They would be defending Europe even though Europe has not asked to be defended.

Last time Europe didn't ask, some small guy with funny mustaches took ownership of more than half of it...

Anyway guys you have Pilots lounge on ubi for such topics...
I really don't see how this fits in here...

[Falke]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but those "defensive" missles are aimed at knocking out missles (with possible nukes) that could be launched from Iran. They are, according to the information I've seen via several differant news sources, both American and European, the best and most effective place to put them.

Russia, specifically Putin, didn't/doesn't like the idea at all. The US tried to work out a comprimise by putting out the idea that they be placed on Russian territory and manned by both Russians and Americans. Putin still didn't like the idea.

As for the comment inferring that Europe doesn't need or want the protection, fine. Notify your governments and tell them to ask the US to take them off the list of "protected" countries. I'm sure the US will be happy to let the missles headed towards you to go on by.

As for sabre rattleing. Russian, thanks in part to its blooming status as an oil producer, has been doing a lot of sabre rattling lately. Putin, who is if you'll remember is X-KGB, and he has not made it a secret of the fact that he wants Russia's military to become a world force again. As prove, Russian aircraft have been making some provocative, close to the border flights near several countries, ending with their aircraft being "escorted" back into international airspace. It looks as though he wants things to be back to the way they were in the "old cold war days." Always probing testing etc.

Personally, I have no problem with that. Every country needs a strong military becuase hey, you never know.

Meanwhile, Putin doesn't seem to want to loose his grip on power. I don't know all the details, and I could be wrong at tleast partially, but the way I understand it, his term expires soon thanks to the new consitution (if thats the right term) and he plans on putting some in his place who is "friendly" to him so he'll still be able to "pull the strings" so to speak and keep his grip on power ensuring that things "go his way".

[Blackdog_kt]

Funny that i just finished watching a documentary/journalist report on Russia's evolution during the last 10-20 years.

Putin is no saint, but despite his iron grip he usually enjoys an approval rate of 70% or so. Let's assume this is somewhat doctored by his control on Russian media, it still is way above 50%, way higher than what state leaders in most western countries have.

When dealing with a foreign country, you should first attempt to deal with the prevailing sentiment of the people who live there and their culture and background. If you look back in history you'll see one thing about Russians, they support powerful leaders, not necessarily fair but powerful ones.

They endured the Czars, then they installed a communist/socialist government model through a revolution that still had an iron grip on things. After that, they tried a western model and all hell broke loose, but finally they more or less settled for a compromise...they still have a Czar/Party Premier it's just that they vote him themselves. They choose their own tyrants (in the ancient Greek sense, which means a single ruler but not hereditary like a King) and they seem content to do so. If that's the way they want to be governed, who am i to tell them otherwise? You can't force democracy on people, because forcing anything on anyone is as far from democracy as it gets, ie you become a "democracic-fanatic". If the part in quote marks sounds ridiculous and contradictory to the extreme, it's only because it is that ridiculous to believe you can make people like democracy by force.

If the majority didn't like it trust me, they would have done something. If nothing else, they've shown through history that they have a tremendous capacity to resist and overcome whatever comes their way, not only as a whole but individually as well.

Maybe the Russian mindset is not suited to a western government model. I know a lot of Russians because many of them moved to Greece 10-15 years ago and live here permanently. One thing i can understand about them is that they don't care as much about what they get, but what they have to do to get it. They are headstrong, they can party in a frenzy like nobody (to the point that's scary, if you've seen a drunk Russian you fear nothing afterwards ), but most of all, they are very proud people, extremely fair if you show them respect and prepared go to hell and back for someone they respect or something they value.

They might even be good people that do bad things or bad people that do good things, because they live by a code that's vastly different to our own. And what's most important to them is their sense of pride and their code, to the point that many are willing to sacrifice personal freedoms to preserve their values.

There were two kinds of people that spoke against Putin in that documentary. One is the group of businessmen who effectively stole Russia's natural wealth. The people who agreed to support Yeltsin in exchange for erasing their loan debts, the same loans they used to buy every oil and gas company in the country. Those are upset because Putin hunts them down.

The other group are ordinary civilians, mostly poor people, the ones whom we would suspect to be prime supporters of democracy. Well, these guys, the beggars in the streets of Moscow, the unemployed, these guys said "Stalinist times were bad, but after him it was better than it is today, especially 60s and 70s." These guys considered the communist model preferable to a western style "democracy". They have tried a bit of both, we have not, so even if i don't consider myself a communist, i can't help thinking they might have a point due to experience alone.

As for the defensive missiles, it's not about defense per se. It's about the possibility of one superpower to negate the single most efficient doctrine of the previous century, one that was called "MAD: Mutually Assured Destruction" and kept us all from blowing eachother to bits.

Let's see a recent example. When Cyprus bought S-300 SAMs from Russia, the US and UK were happily whistling along while having full knowledge of the fact that Turkey was making plans to attack them in transit. They even stated in public that they would attack a EU candidate (at that time, Cyprus is now in EU proper) and risk a war with another NATO country (Greece namely) and still nobody lifted a finger. Those missiles negated much of their air superiority advantage in the event of a conflict and subsequently, their political leverage (in layman's terms, it lowered their chances for a successful blackmail attempt). In the end these missiles were not deployed to Cyprus, but Crete instead.

Now, the US is planning to install a system that will severely curtail Russia's nuclear deterrence capabilities. Not a few SAM sites that will target some stray Sukhois, but a system that will make it possible for the US to launch against anyone with total impunity, and hence total disregard for non-american human lives as their track record has shown, but on a scale so far unseen.
Russia doesn't care about Iran because Iran won't attack them. A lot of European countries care but don't necessarily fear Iran, because they are not the ones who've been bombing middle eastern countries during the last 10-20 years (if we include all incidents and not just full blown wars).

What will change for Russia and that part of Europe if the system gets deployed is not an added sense of security against possible Iranian ICBMs, because the chances of seeing one come our way is slim anyway.
Instead, it's the increasingly troubling thought of the US gaining a "get out jail free" card a la Monopoly that worries us.

Sorry guys, but due to your track record ever since the end of the cold war we have more reasons to fear your president than the Mulahs in Tehran. If there really is a reason we should fear them, it is due to the actions taken by your administrations when they lump us all in their west vs east crusade without asking us first.

[VMF-214_HaVoK]

So if Oleg gets SoW out soon it will perhaps help prevent a cold war? Interesting but I just want to play a game.

And I do believe many of you are crossing the line in whats allowed here. I thought political and religious debates were against the rules. You guys just can not help yourselves it would seem and such exchanges is what gave UBI its bad name and now you all are doing it here. This is a game forum and should remain as such and if your wish to get all political and religious take it somewhere else please!

S!

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by VMF-214_HaVoK

So if Oleg gets SoW out soon it will perhaps help prevent a cold war? Interesting but I just want to play a game.

And I do believe many of you are crossing the line in whats allowed here. I thought political and religious debates were against the rules. You guys just can not help yourselves it would seem and such exchanges is what gave UBI its bad name and now you all are doing it here. This is a game forum and should remain as such and if your wish to get all political and religious take it somewhere else please!

S!

Yeah... things can go awry. I just recall how non-speaking we were with Russia during Cold War. Russian bombers flying over US carriers, challenging US over the missle deal in Poland all sound like cold war junk to me. I have enjoyed all the international crowd associated with IL2, and a great sim game as well.

I do hope Oleg puts this thing on the front burner before things get worse beween us. Please don't read that as a political statement.

I'm happy and not mad with anyone. I respect all views.

Thanks to all responders