water cannon

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Lixma

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots

If only the police were armed none of this would have happened!

Oh, wait...

Originally Posted by Lixma

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_riots

If only the French pulled their head out of the sand and armed their police none of this would have happened!

Oh, wait....

yeah, truth is that those were real riots, whereas what happened here was mainly looting. Things could have gone way out of hand in those two contexts if there was no armed police forces.

You know what, in the end of the day it's your choice, your obstinate position on this has bore its consequences (Cumbria shooting, Hungerford, Monkseaton, Dunblane), again because you weren't affected directly by it. Truth is that police couldnt do its job properly because they're untrained and unarmed, which defies the concept of policing.

Yes, if you're a citizen brought up with certain moral standards this is the kind of policing you will need, but when such a huge component of your society is made by people that don't give a toss about anything and have nothing to lose, you have these phenomena happening in an alarming copycat chain.

I for one care about and respect the society I live in and will do what I can to protect it and my household, and know that police forces unfortunately can't be everywhere all the time.

Firearms are not just meant for defence, they have other uses, believe it or not, but fortunately I am given the possibility to choose and have them, what really really annoys me is all these advocates for a no-firearms society, which are frankly delusional and dont have the faintest idea of the world they live in.

All I can hope for is that you will never find yourself in a position when you might really do with one, cos it's not gonna be fun..

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Querer

Fifth: comparing cars and guns is on an intellectual niveau I usually do not further comment. People dying in cars=accident. People dying by guns=controlled, conscious action. Even you admit, that its not the gun killing people, but the one at the trigger. Same is true for cars, so argument even further invalid...

I'm sorry but that's a gross generalisation.
The truth is that a car is a commodity that very few people would give up on. That's the only difference. Cars and the oil we need to run them make waaaay much more damage than owning firearms, but again, who would give up on such comfort? It's the hypocrisy of modern society..

[Lixma]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

You know what, in the end of the day it's your choice, your obstinate position on this has bore its consequences (Cumbria shooting, Hungerford, Monkseaton, Dunblane), again because you weren't affected directly by it.

Wow.

[Lixma]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I'm sorry but that's a gross generalisation...

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Yes, if you're a citizen brought up with certain moral standards this is the kind of policing you will need, but when such a huge component of your society is made by people that don't give a toss about anything and have nothing to lose, you have these phenomena happening in an alarming copycat chain.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Firearms are not just meant for defence, they have other uses, believe it or not, but fortunately I am given the possibility to choose and have them, what really really annoys me is all these advocates for a no-firearms society, which are frankly delusional and dont have the faintest idea of the world they live in.

You are awesome.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Lixma

You are awesome.

I don't get your point.

[ruggbutt]

You just don't see those kinds of riots in Arizona where I live. During the L.A. riots some of the so-called black leaders were trying to get people stirred up here to riot. The thing is, we're all armed. In '92 I was carrying openly in a holster as is in accordance with the law. I also was a CCW instructor so I could carry concealed if I wanted to. Either way, the riots didn't happen here and continue to not happen here because the prevailing attitude is live and let live. Unless you're destroying my property or intend to harm. The law here allows a whole bunch of really neat stuff to happen should you decide to become a hoodlum. I've held car theives at gun point for the police. They thanked me. A buddy had a gun stolen and it was hidden in a business warehouse. He reported it stolen. We staked out the place and they came back to get it. The perps were looking down the barrel of my scoped AR-15 when they came out w/the stolen gun. The cops showed up, thanked us for holding the theives and moved on.

An armed society is a polite society. I shot 3 gun combat matches professionally for years and years. I've seen disagreements and I've seen some harsh words exchanged. Never did one person decide that the firearm was the answer to the argument. Whether that person had true respect for the weapon or whether he didn't wanna get smoked by the rest of the armed people present is something only that person can answer. In '95 my team shot 4th in the Soldier of Fortune world championships. Closest law enforcement or military team was 7th. The top 5 were sponsored civilian teams. In those days I was still a professional musician so my hair was long, down to my waist. I was the only competitor with long hair. Even got some smart alec comments from some of the other shooters. Till I shot. They were polite after that. It's hard to explain the dynamic between people when everyone is armed but it's one that I prefer. People for the most part are more polite. Like a normal human being should be. There's no childish screaming or someone being a jerk cuz they've had a bad day. Below is a shot from that match, on the shotgun stage. #4 buckshot or better were the loads we were required to carry. No birdshot.



I feel completely comfortable around others that are armed. I'm not intimidated in the least by someone carrying. In some ways, I believe that natural selection would work much better in a society where everyone was armed. Those that were too stupid (or rude) to get a clue wouldn't last long and society would be better off for it.

[ATAG_Doc]

Originally Posted by Querer

The problem which most of the people arguing for freedom regarding owning a gun or not is that they usually forget that there are tons of people around, which should definitely not be able to carry a gun around and NOT being criminal. Of course, us, normally behaving and at least average intelligent human beings, can discuss this matter being pro or against. Silly things with laws (however stupid they are...) is: they have to be the same for everybody. And I absolutely not want my choleric neighbour, who tends to get angry by every little thing bothering him, to carry a gun around. And I am absolutely sure that he has a clean record and no (obvious) mental disorder. That's the way it is, all other arguments are picked.

First, you should stop bringing up over and over again examples of massacres. Even now in Norway, things like this are usually rare events compared to the amount of gun homicides, which happen on a daily basis in the US. This comparison is ridiculous, as such things can happen even with the tightest control of guns, but they will also continue to happen if everybody is carrying a gun (as the maniac is usually ready to die).

Second: how many times did you actually miss a gun in your hands? I guess, that 99% of the people desperatly begging for free firearms have never been in a situation where they would have real drawbacks with NO gun in their hands.

Third, don't forget that you can destroy someones life even without killing him, usually the high numbers of injuries are not taken in account in the statistics...

Fourth: in a working society, there is simply not 100% freedom possible, forget about that. So there is NO right to carry around a gun, that is ridiculuous thinking of about 200 years ago...

Fifth: comparing cars and guns is on an intellectual niveau I usually do not further comment. People dying in cars=accident. People dying by guns=controlled, conscious action. Even you admit, that its not the gun killing people, but the one at the trigger. Same is true for cars, so argument even further invalid...

I think, "unreasonable" is right, criminal rate is a cultural matter. Of course, you would feel more safe with a gun at home, if some looters want to rob your stuff out of your house. But come one, how many times happens this in your life? And don't you think, there would be more intelligent ways to avoid looters robbing your house than just by sitting in there armed like hell? This is so shortsighted thinking that I stop commenting any further here...

Speak for yourself I am always armed. Always. In my vehicle. On my person. On my property. In my home. I have several. They are all loaded. That is the safest way to keep them. Most of the meat I consume I shot myself. I have a freezer full of it and what I cannot consume I donate to organization that feed people. But I rarely buy meat since I have a ton already. I've won a chili cook off 2 years in a row (the only 2 I entered) using deer.

[nearmiss]

Does anyone think that the Eastern Block countries, East Germany, Romania, etc. would have put up with the Russia communist oppression for over 50 years if they'd have had guns? They would have tried to do something to resist.

Does anyone think that the people in Somalia "today" would be under the oppression of the war lords, if the general population had access to guns?
They would try to do something to resist.

Does anyone think that the oppression in Darfur would be going on if the persecuted people had guns? They would try to do something to resist.

When people are empowered with the will resist, or they have guns and guts, they can make oppressors seek easier prey.

Guns are harmless, they are just metal objects like cars, hammers, screwdrivers, etc. You can kill someone with any of the three in the hands of the wrong person.

Guns can be a tool of dubious value of course against government oppression.

When Russia was at war with Afghanistan they had the big helicopter gun ships with the extremely fast "guns". The Russians could wipe out an entire village with one 4 second fly by. The Afghans were helpless with their handguns against such weapons and a well equipped enemy. America gave the Afghans the SAM, RPG. The Afghans began to knock down those gunships. This was a war too costly to continue for Russia, they loaded up and left.

Guns have a place, but in modern day warfare I'd say it is mostly in the minds of the people that think the ordinary handgun will be their salvation. Guns are not an end all solution to oppresive or aggressive governments. Guns can enable the people to resist and make subjugation of those people very difficult for aggressors.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

Guns have a place, but in modern day warfare I'd say it is mostly in the minds of the people that think the ordinary handgun will be their salvation.

well mate, if/when the s**t really hits the fan, I doubt you'll save yourself with sophisms..

[Sternjaeger II]

+ 1000 to ruggbutt


you can actually see it in the arrogance and patronising attitude of their posts.. the conception and tolerance for others' ideas and principles is quite a random one here..