Updated RAF FMs in 1.07.18301

[=AN=Felipe]

Originally Posted by 6S.Manu

Gunnery, yes, but more than pilot's hands it was pilot's IQ. Fatigue modelling, but above all realistic scanning timing and visibility would give the real advantage to the smarter and more disciplined guy, and not to the one who's good with the stick.

Thx for the kind words! I 100% agree with you! I think we can add the famous "Situation awarness" or "SA" in parallel with IQ and discipline of the Pilots.

Of course we will reach for realistic flight and models like you said =)

Cya!

[Robo.]

Nice reading Felipe - I didn't get that it was yourself in the Spitfire from Ernst's post. Well flown then!

But what you discuss here with Manu is all about individual pilot's skill = using the existing FMs but not about FMs themselves. Although I obviously agree with what you said, it always comes down to the guy in the cockpit, his brain, his hands, feet, eyes, experience...

As for the Flight Models - there are still mistakes and inconsistencies in all aircraft, this thread is about improved RAF aircraft from the last Beta patch. Not because anyone is complaining but because all this is new stuff and we want it to be evaluated, discussed etc. It always takes some time to get used to the new stuff and to figure it out...

Coming back to what Ernst said about the initial FM discussion:

Originally Posted by Ernst

I do not known but my opinion is that guys complaining about sptifires are noobies because yesterday i found =AN=Felipe's spitfire at 6.5 K and we need 3 109s to shot down him.

You can take whatever FM and make it work for you. Good pilot is a good pilot... but that doesn't mean that the FM is correct.

Originally Posted by Ernst

The fight lasted almost 10 minutes. The spitfire IIA totally overperformed the 109 high there making loops and barrels rolls while the 109 barely can climb or fly level.

Have you ever tried flying a Spitfire above 20k? It certainly outperforms the 109s up there, which is why Felipe was at that altitude in the first place. But it's certainly not easy, I would say that many people with less hours in a Spitfire would blow their engine before you say Messerschmitt Messerschmitt Messerschmitt.

Originally Posted by Ernst

If in RL was that way the 109s would have no chance since the BoB fight occured mostly at high altitude, and we known that they were very well matched if we compared the kill/ratios against each other. Someone can say? The Germans have more acs? Ok if you consider the bombers. But fighter vs. fighter they were matched and the british were flying over its territory, the germans had teh fuel problem etc...

How exactly matched? Speed wise or climb rate? What altitudes are we talking about? Looking at the hard data - graphs etc it looks that Merlins had a slight edge up there, see http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html (I do know the site is red biased, but the actual graphs are not far off). German pilots were struggling up there and it required some skill to get some extra speed above FTH - see Steinhilpers book and fiddling with RPM etc. Even more pronounced with the Merlin XII.

Originally Posted by Ernst

The truth is, the SPIT accutually in sim is very capable aircraft and certainly well matched with the 109s....

I agree it is very capable and now quite well matched (with this new patch I mean). But we're still not quite there hence this discussion and pointing out at things that are still wrong - including weird mixture behaviour or wrong limits for engine operations.

Where exactly did you see a 3' limit for BCC-O (Merlin III)?

[Robo.]

Bugtracker issues dealing with Spitfire FMs :

1. Incorrect boost settings (Rolls Royce Merlin engines):

http://www.il2bugtracker.com/issues/370

2. Incorrect mixture operation (Rolls Royce Merlin engines):

http://www.il2bugtracker.com/issues/102

3. Incorrect mixture position (Spitfire)

http://www.il2bugtracker.com/issues/18

Please do vote, it seems the devs are listening and are basing the fixes on the number of votes.

[Talisman]

Originally Posted by phoenix1963

Kwaitek's post reminded me that with this patch the Spit 2a versus 100 octane Spit 1a performance is now completely out of kilter. They really should not be massively different.
The 100 1a now feels strangely unstable, much slower to accelerate, struggles to turn.

Spitfires were always "nice" to fly, this one is not. Yes, this is a rather subjective view! I'd be grateful if someone could produce some comparative performance graphs, particularly sustained turn rates, it's difficult I know.

56RAF_phoenix

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spitfire-II.html

I found the gen via the above link (esp para 4) rather interesting Phoenix.

Happy landings

[Osprey]

I've flown with Felipe before, he knows his stuff. Had you (Ernst) been taken down by me then perhaps we could argue about overmodelling, but Felipe, no, he just gets the best out of it.

This was all predicted, that after 14 months of utter domination by the 109 the FM's are at least brought closer and now a number of blues are suddenly upset about it. One thing I notice is that the best blue pilots are pretty much silent though, they know their machines and how to use them. If you want to learn from some of these types and aren't a squadron take a look at JG26 in Air Combat Group JG26_DavidRed is desperately hard to kill !

~S~

[FS~Phat]

Guys enough of the personal attacks. Infractions have been given and more will be on the way if you dont calm down.

Its not acceptable to draw someone into an argument calling them anything, especially in bad taste about the holocaust.

For god sake man GROW UP!

[FS~Phat]

As I have mentioned privately to a couple of people.

Please read the rules, it is against the rules to discuss politics, religion and by definition war crimes. This is a game forum.

RULE #1 no less...

1. Unacceptable behavior - includes vulgarity and obscene language, offensive or threatening content, drugs propaganda, political or religious agitation and propaganda, etc

I hope I have made it clear.

[=AN=Felipe]

Hey Osprey and Robo, thx!

So Robo, i talk about pilots skills but i talk about correct modeling too, i think we all reach the correct FM and we will seek that!


Anyway i am workin with AN team for bring up the new datas of performance tests of spitfires and hurricanes ok?

Lets work for a more accurate FM!

[6S.Manu]

Originally Posted by Osprey

This was all predicted, that after 14 months of utter domination by the 109 the FM's are at least brought closer and now a number of blues are suddenly upset about it.

Osprey, many pilots keep flying Spitfires at low altitude and this is not a matter of FM...

I don't know Felipe's skill but just for the fact he flies so high it makes clear that he's more than an average Spit pilot, a good challenger, and I guess he was also when RAF fighters' speed was lower.

But, imo, you find one as Felipe once every 30 engagements with Spitfire pilots. So I can understand if blue pilots feel confident in their rides: probably they used to not look above their plane while flying at medium altitude.

[Flanker35M]

S!

I would say that there is an equal amount of average pilots in both camps, a few shine above them and then the new ones learning the ropes. Has nothing to do with any preferred ride or side.

As many state it would benefit all to make comprehensive tests and post the results and see what is off, what is OK and what needs some tweaking only. Without it going into a blue vs. red name calling, that is not what we need but a game/sim all want to play and learn to be a good pilot.