4.11 - AI debugging

[FC99]

Originally Posted by Juri_JS

Thank you for your efforts FC99.
Can you tell me if there is any news on the Mosquito ship attack issue? I am asking because it seriously hampers one of my campaign projects.

All issues in your missions are solved. Mosquitoes attacks and avoid crashing into targets.

[FC99]

Originally Posted by [URU]BlackFox

I was testing the AI strafing behaviour, and it seems that it just makes one strafing run, no matter the results, and gives up strafing.

The old routine, the one that made the AI get far away from the target before coming in again was not good, and maybe this could be a good time to redo the ground attack logic.

Hi, tried your mission and it works as you described. I tried some other Ground Attack missions and in them AI made multiple attacks so it seems that this is situation dependent.

I'll check some of the old manuals for RL ground attack patterns and change AI if necessary.

Originally Posted by Bearcat

Now I know that the AI went into a dive to put out the fire... but we were not that high ... and I have heard of engine fires being put out that way but not wing fires ... usually when the wing catches fire .... the pilot bails or dies...

Well, if you have read some of the responses you can see why is AI programming hard. Same situation but very different reaction to it by different people. It's hard for AI to satisfy everybody. IMO best we can do is to enable AI to exhibit all kind of behavior characteristic to humans.

Originally Posted by Jumoschwanz

I noticed that Ace AI fighters will keep chasing after and shooting enemy fighters when the enemy fighter is in flames and/or the engine is stopped. Just thought it was a waste of resources and ammo for them.

First of all, it is good to see you around Jumo, always a pleasure to see that some Il2 veterans are still playing this game.

They can recognize the "kill" sometimes but I'll see what can be done to improve it.

On the other hand, I have seen a number of times when Ace AI are themselves in disabled fighters or bombers, either on fire or with stopped engines or missing controls and they continue to fly the aircraft instead of bail.

Again, there is a part of the code that should deal with such situations, I'll put it on the TODO list.

Not a problem for me, and I am sure that in WWII some chose to stick with their aircraft rather than bail, but in the cases I am talking about the aircraft ends up crashing and killing the crew.
Maybe something is damaged or the AI are wounded and they can not bail out? Altitude does not seem to be a factor as sometimes they will bail so low they hit the ground too fast and die.

That's entirely possible.

So depending on how you look at it things with the AI can either be faults or simply imitating humans with all their faults and erratic behavior.

Exactly, AI have right to be stupid, after all, we have all witnessed idiotic human behavior on servers.

As far as fighting ability goes, the Ace AI is still not as good as the better human pilots flying online, it is damn good but not like human Ace pilots.

Correct 100%, but if we make AI aces as good as some online pilot I met( you included) who would fly this game? IMO for gameplay reasons, it is ideal for AI to be good but just not as good as best humans.

FC

[Jumoschwanz]

Originally Posted by FC99

Correct 100%, but if we make AI aces as good as some online pilot I met( you included) who would fly this game? IMO for gameplay reasons, it is ideal for AI to be good but just not as good as best humans.FC

If possible it would be great to have a level above Ace, call it "undefeatable" or "legendary" as if you were flying against one of the great WWII aces.

Just as it is no fun to lose all the time, it is equally boring to always win. People can choose the level they want to play against. If someone loses to the "legendary" pilots in IL2, then they don't have to feel bad as everyone lost to them in WWII also...

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

You can always increase the number of foes!
Up to 32 aces together may be better than you (maybe not).

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Jumoschwanz

I noticed that Ace AI fighters will keep chasing after and shooting enemy fighters when the enemy fighter is in flames and/or the engine is stopped. Just thought it was a waste of resources and ammo for them.

Fires can go out, engines can be restarted. Also, realistically, a pilot might not notice that an opponent's engine has stopped when he opens fire, or he might be trying to kill the crew before they can bail out.

In terms of the game, it's also possible that the game engine is doing its old trick of not always recognizing a kill as a kill until well after the fact, even if the plane is on fire, has a dead pilot, or has ditched or crash landed.

Originally Posted by Jumoschwanz

On the other hand, I have seen a number of times when Ace AI are themselves in disabled fighters or bombers, either on fire or with stopped engines or missing controls and they continue to fly the aircraft instead of bail.

The decision to bail out or stay with the airplane is heavily dependent on the situation. It would be tough for AI to model all the possible situations.

Examples:

Stuck controls.

Normally: Bail out.

Except: You're over enemy territory on a straight and level course back to friendly territory. Then you stay with the plane and bail out over friendly territory.

Except: You're flying straight and level over water. You stay with the plane and bail out over the nearest friendly territory. If that's not possible, you bail out over land.

Except: You're in a plane where you have access to tools, cable runs, etc. and you're flying straight and level. You try to fix the problem.

Except: You're in an airplane which has wounded crew aboard who are too badly injured to bail out. Then, you have everyone except the pilot bail out over friendly territory and then the pilot attempts to make a crash landing.

Fire or Dead Engine.

Normally: Bail out.

Except: You're too low to bail out. Then you ride the plane down and try to crash land.

Except: You're over a friendly populated area or too low to bail out. Then you point the plane towards an open area and ride it down as long as it's possible to do so, then bail out at minimum safe altitude.

Except: You're over water. Then you try to ride the plane down and ditch, since there is survival equipment in the plane that you'd have to leave behind if you jumped.

Except: You're over water near a friendly ship. You turn the plane so you're near the ship and then bail out or ditch, depending on altitude, hoping for rescue.

Except: You're over water near a friendly coast. You turn the plane towards land so you can bail out over land.

Except: You're over hostile coast, but there are friendly ships off the coast. You turn the plane and try to get near a friendly ship.

Except: You're right over your target with a load of bombs. You hold course and bomb your target, then bail or crash. (Or, for the occasional hero, you suicide dive into your target.)

Originally Posted by Jumoschwanz

Sure, sometimes the AI will fly into the ground, but I am sure a lot of aircraft in WWII hit the ground or water while fighting at low altitude.

Lots of planes came back with bits of trees imbedded in the wings. In one notable instance, a U.S. jabo actually flew low enough to decapitate a German soldier! And, one U.S. ace who should have known better (Lt. Col. Francis Gabrelski) flew so low to the ground that he messed up his propeller and had to crash land.

[harryRIEDL]

I had a quick QM with a bomber raid with some odd behavior I had TB-3 landing randomly(undamaged and hopping up and down on the terrain) and collisions Two PE-8 ran into each other on the approch to target (average AI Crimieia Map Target Airfield)

[mmaruda]

Not really a bug, but since the AI rear gunner snipers are gone, it's become ridiculous - attacking a formation of IL-4 bombers... Alone! Downed 6 of them in one pass doing about 280kph in 190 A-4. They were shooting all over the place, except at me. This wasn't a fast boom and zoom, I slowly got onto each and every one's tail, and shot the crap out of 'em. In 4.10 I would be dead in seconds.

I know that before the gunners were a pain, but a slow, lone attack on a bomber formation from behind still should be suicide - now it's a stroll in the park. I was actually eating a doughnut during this, and they gave me and Iron Cross... Bit weird.

[BadAim]

I'd like to first note that I'm enjoying the new AI immensely they're much smoother and more human like. One little foible I did notice is that I had my wingman crash right next to me as I landed at missions end when I forgot to give him the "go home" order, just like they've always done. If you have time this might be something to look at.

[WTE_Galway]

Originally Posted by BadAim

I'd like to first note that I'm enjoying the new AI immensely they're much smoother and more human like. One little foible I did notice is that I had my wingman crash right next to me as I landed at missions end when I forgot to give him the "go home" order, just like they've always done. If you have time this might be something to look at.

I have NOT tested it ... however if the wingman still does a CFIT when his leader is landing they most likely also still pancake into hills and mountains when scud running or dogfighting in valleys ... especially on maps like Slovakia while carrying munitions.

[FC99]

Originally Posted by BadAim

One little foible I did notice is that I had my wingman crash right next to me as I landed at missions end when I forgot to give him the "go home" order, just like they've always done. If you have time this might be something to look at.

My reply might sound patronizing but I assure that that is not my intention, I'll use your post just as an example and try to provoke some thoughts.

In above situation first error was one made by human pilot, in fact AI pilots done what many of the real WWII pilots would do, they followed their leader.
This leads to the next point. Being a leader is not easy, not everybody can be a leader in RL. Leadership brings responsibility, leader have to take care about his subordinates and adjust his actions to match ability of his team.

IMO players should try to get into this leadership role more, great leaders are those who can get the most out of their team, overcame its weaknesses and exploit its strengths. As AI improves and become more human-like, role of the leader becomes more and more important and players are missing a lot of fun if they don't dug deeper into Leader role.

My point being, do what your team can do, don't try to force them to do what they can't do.

Now back to the bug report. You are right, that happens. I made new maneuver for low level flying ( you can now lead your flight few meters above the ground, try it but just don't make descent too steep) and I build mechanism that was supposed to take care about situations like you described.
Obviously it's not sufficient and I'll make some adjustments. Thanks for report and ,please, don't take my post personally, it was just used to ilustrate my POV about the leadership in games in general.